Podcast Episode – Neil Frick

Whether you’re here to revisit your favourite parts of the conversation or to read through the insightful dialogue for the first time, I hope this transcript provides an easy-to-read format of our engaging discussion.

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Key Highlights From This Episode

The insightful lessons and poignant leadership practices Neil shares with us are:

• Empathy-Driven Leadership

Neil emphasises that effective leadership is rooted in empathy and understanding the personal and professional needs of employees.  By caring for their growth and well-being, leaders can cultivate a more engaged and productive team.

“The best leaders that I’ve seen, have looked at the workforce as an opportunity to kinda grow and leave behind a legacy, leave people in a better state than when they found them.”

Leadership is not one-size-fits-all.  Empathetic leaders adapt their style based on the individual needs of their team members.  Whether someone needs direct guidance or the freedom to work independently, the leader’s role is to understand and support them accordingly.

“If you are leading with empathy, you’re understanding where they’re coming from and what they need, and then you’re giving it to them.  Some people may need you to tell them directly what to do and how to do it, and that is… one person will look at that as micromanagement, someone else will look at that as support.”

Empathetic leadership plays a key role in cultivating diversity within organisations.  It acknowledges individuals’ unique needs — like adjusting work environments for neurodivergent employees — and creates an inclusive culture where everyone can thrive.  By understanding the challenges and strengths that diversity brings, empathetic leaders create workplaces that reflect the world at large.

“Empathy-based diversity is… understanding what people can contribute to [your organisation].”

• A Culture of Open Communication is Essential

Creating a culture where employees feel safe to voice their concerns and needs is fundamental.  Leaders should actively engage with employees to understand their challenges and provide meaningful solutions.

“What a leader could start doing immediately is encouraging…an open-door policy culture, where people can come and have conversations…not around their productivity…but ‘hey, is the company giving you what you need?  Are you feeling supported here?’“

Leaders have the responsibility to create safe environments where team members can bring their authentic selves to work.  Neil emphasises how critical it is for leaders to be transparent and genuine themselves, setting the tone for others to follow suit.

“The job is of the leader to make that organisation a safe space for people to feel like they can be themselves…We have to create those spaces for people, and the only way to do that is to be authentically ourselves.“

Leaders need to adapt their communication style based on individual needs, especially when employees are anxious.  It’s important to provide reasonable accommodations while ensuring fairness across the team, recognising that not all workloads can or should be equal.

“It’s about reasonable accommodations.  It’s about, you know, what is realistic…If you work collaboratively with them… you can reasonably do x, y, and z to get them where they need to be.”

Leaders must first acknowledge that anxiety and mental health challenges exist within themselves and their teams.  Breaking the stigma around these topics is the key to creating an environment where employees feel safe sharing their struggles.

“If you don’t start the conversation as a leader, you are doing a disservice to your employees… Even if you would not have that reaction of, ‘oh, that person is a risk,’ by not addressing it directly, you’re not giving them the space to breathe and have that conversation with you.”

This lesson highlights the power of authenticity in fostering an inclusive and psychologically safe workplace, especially for marginalized individuals.  Leaders should strive to embrace their own vulnerabilities to pave the way for others to do the same.

• Diversity is More Than a Checkbox — It’s an Opportunity for Innovation

Neil emphasises that diversity should not be viewed as a compliance issue but as a vital strategy for organisational growth.  Different perspectives foster creative problem-solving and innovation.  Leaders must shift from a “culture fit” mindset to a “cultural additive” one — seeking individuals who bring new insights rather than conforming to existing norms.

“When you’re truly embracing [diversity], leaders will rise naturally from multiple backgrounds… once they have the ability to do so.”

Neil highlights that fostering an inclusive and flexible work environment not only benefits employees but also enhances organisational success by bringing diverse perspectives to problem-solving.

“Diversity of thought then allows you to come up with creative solutions for your customers.  If you have a homogenised culture…you’ve got a limited viewpoint of what your customer may need.”

Leadership in a multigenerational workforce means recognising that each generation brings unique perspectives and work habits to the table.  To lead effectively, empathy is crucial — not just in understanding where each generation comes from, but also in creating an environment where their contributions are respected and valued.  By promoting open dialogue between generations, leaders can bridge differences and encourage collaboration.

“Listen to someone younger, listen to someone older, listen to someone at the same level.  You don’t have to change the way you approach things just because someone said a different approach is the way to go.  But open yourself up to those world views.”

Different generations often have divergent approaches to work and communication.  A key leadership skill is facilitating respectful conversations that allow each generation to learn from the other while maintaining mutual respect.  Encourage younger employees to share fresh ideas, but also ensure that more experienced employees can impart their wisdom.  This balance fosters innovation while benefiting from seasoned insights.

• Leadership vs. Management: Strategic Vision vs. Task Execution

Neil differentiates between management and leadership, explaining that while management focuses on task completion, leadership is about setting a strategic vision and inspiring the team to achieve it.  Both are necessary, but leadership drives long-term success by aligning the team with a shared vision.

“Leadership is more strategic…It’s understanding what a person needs, meeting them where they are, and then helping to make them part of the larger vision of an organisation.”

• Act When Your Gut and Head Are in Alignment

Neil’s advice on decision-making is about trusting both your instincts and your reasoning, and acting swiftly when they are in sync.  This avoids the trap of indecision, which often stems from fear or over-analysis.

“When your gut and your head are in alignment, move immediately…you can recover from a bad decision, but you can’t recover from not making a decision.”

This lesson encourages leaders to be decisive, stressing that action—even if it leads to failure—provides growth opportunities.  Indecision, on the other hand, leads to stagnation and missed opportunities for progress.

• Self-Reflection is Crucial for Effective Leadership

Leaders need to regularly self-reflect to understand their own triggers, emotions, and responses.  This awareness not only helps them manage themselves but also allows them to better understand and support their teams.

“You have to start with yourself.  I think a lot of leaders miss that step.  They look at their teams, and they’re asking questions about why things aren’t working, but they’re not looking at why things aren’t working for them.”

• Succession Planning: Develop Talent with Long-Term Growth in Mind

In a world where job-hopping has become more common, leaders must focus on creating robust succession plans that prioritise growth and flexibility.  Instead of hoarding knowledge or fearing being replaced, a leader’s job is to mentor and empower their team.  By building pathways for career advancement and ensuring employees have opportunities to try new things, leaders can foster loyalty and ensure that the organisation has the talent it needs to thrive in the future.

“If you don’t have a good succession plan for the person who is going to step into your shoes, there’s no way you’re gonna step into somebody else’s.  An organisation is going to look at you and say you have no depth within your group.”

The fear of being replaced can lead to hoarding knowledge or stifling team members’ development.  However, great leaders actively “work themselves out of a job” by preparing others to take their place.  This approach not only strengthens the team but ensures continuity and builds loyalty within the organisation.

Full Transcript of this Episode

Enjoy the full transcript below!

Chris (Host)

Hello and welcome back to, To Lead is To Learn, the podcast where we explore the dynamic world of leadership together. Whether you’re a returning listener, or joining us for the first time, I’m truly grateful you’ve chosen us as your companion upon your leadership development journey.

Our mission here is simple, to empower you with the knowledge, skills and insights needed to excel in leadership. But before we dive into today’s episode, I want to express my sincere thanks to each one of you. Your trust in us means the world and it’s an honour to be part of your growth.

Now speaking of growth, did you know that To Lead is To Learn is brought to you by Lamda solutions? At Lamda we specialise in leadership development and coaching, and we’re passionate about helping individuals like you become the best leaders you can be. If you’re looking to take your leadership skills to the next level, or if your organisation is seeking guidance to achieve its leadership goals, I invite you to explore what we have to offer. Simply visit our website at www.thelamda.co.uk to discover more about how we can assist you directly.

Thank you for being part of our community, now let’s dive into today’s episode and continue learning and growing together.

In today’s special episode, we will be talking to an experienced leader about their experience of leadership, challenges they have faced, and any thoughts and visions for the future.

____Introduction Clips____

Neil

Woah. I just blew up at that person because of x/y/z, why did I do that?…People may have a hard time having that conversation with somebody in an executive leadership position…There is such a stigma about mental health and such a stigma about anxiety…Financial stress is such a major factor in so many people’s lives…The first thing you need to address within your organisation is pay equity…Productivity is not really an equal measure to how many hours you’re working….Companies need people more than people need companies for the most part…They spoke up and they got what they needed. Alright, I’m gonna do the same thing….Some CEOs seem to have this impression that, you know, they’re putting themselves on this pedestal….If they are petrified of having a conversation with you, you have a real issue with your culture.

____Main Discussion ____

Chris

Without further ado, here’s Neil Frick, CEO of Cybercor Technologies.

Chris

The first question that I ask everyone who comes onto my podcast, is that every leader has a story of how they reach their current level. Can you share yours?

Neil

Certainly. So, I started in the industry I currently work in, in talent acquisition. And I really saw early on in my career the impact that an organisational structure, good management, strong leadership, can have on a person’s…not only career, but life.

As a recruiter, bringing people into a company, it was very important to me, not only that they were able to succeed in their role, but that they left that experience, having some kind of a benefit to their personal life; whether it be more flexibility or more compensation.

My father was an entrepreneur, and, he has his own business. And I saw how he treated his employees, and, you know, it was very important to him that he not only kind of managed them professionally, but that he helped them personally. And I think that impacted a lot of my development.

And then obviously through my career, I had managers that were phenomenal, that advanced my life and my career, and had helped me in wonderful ways. And then I had managers who, you know, maybe didn’t do quite as well.

So, you know, as my sort of philosophy about leadership changed over the years, I really started to hone in on a people based and empathetic approach, worked my way up through talent acquisition into operations management, and then ultimately executive leadership and, as last year, took over as CEO of an organisation.

Chris

It’s interesting in that description you gave. You talked about good management and good leadership. So, do you see them as different things? And if so, how do you describe each?

Neil

I do see them as different things. Management to me is very tactical, it’s responding to a situation on kind of a basic level. It’s task oriented. It’s production oriented.

Leadership is more strategic. It’s more sort of applying the vision of the organisation, or your own vision, and sharing that with your team, and helping to lift them.

You know, a lot of organisations focus on management. They focus on task completion and productivity, and leadership takes it a step further. It’s understanding what a person needs, meeting them where they are, and then helping to make them part of the larger vision of an organisation…and grow, kind of their skills, their abilities, which will just help the organisation in the long run.

I think great management is necessary, especially for work, you know, that is very rote, very specific, very repetitive. That needs strong tactical management. But organisations need strong leadership, and people do their best work, and thrive the most when they work for, and are supported by, a truly excellent leader.

Chris

That’s a really good description of both. That’s the best I’ve ever had, actually.

Neil

Oh, thank you.

Chris

So, you explained there in your story, that you’ve had a lot of experience from many positions, starting in talent acquisition, management experience, business growth, human resources. You’ve had…you’ve helped grow start-ups as well.

So, can you share with us the unique challenges which has come with each of those, as well as the transferable skills that you’ve been able to take from each of those positions, to get you where you are today?

Neil

Yeah, absolutely.

I think of them in terms of what the end goal is. So, for human resources and talent acquisition, right, you are really focused on the people within the organisation or people coming into the organisation. The challenges there are; how do you create an environment and a culture wherein people can thrive? How do you attract talent, especially in the market as it is today where, you know, companies need people more than people need companies for the most part.  With some exceptions in in certain spaces where there is a lack of opportunity.

But I come from the defence and tech sector, and there are, at this point, fewer really solid individuals with those skill sets than there are, jobs. So, people can be picky. They can work for organisations that really, you know, provide them with what they need. So, the challenge there is, how do you find discriminators that set your company apart from everyone else? Because there are thousands of companies out there.

You know, operations is more solving customer problems. Right? It’s how do you create creative solutions. You know? And then in executive leadership, it’s all of it. Right? It’s how do you put these pieces together? How do you find the…how do you execute your vision? How do you bring everyone to the table? And for me, it all comes back to the same place. It comes back to an empathy-based approach to every facet of your business.

For people, it’s understanding where they are in their life and providing an environment that allows them to thrive. And that may be different for each individual, but flexibility is key these days. The ability to, you know, work remote, I think companies are seeing, sort of in the post COVID world, where they’re trying to go back to more traditional approaches to the workforce, you know, they’re losing the talent war because people are being offered opportunities to, you know, work in a way that provides balance to their lives. You also bring a larger demographic of individuals, and you can get more diversity of thought when you are more flexible and offer more, holistic approaches to, you know, kind of a culture of engagement and inclusion.

Diversity of thought then allows you to come up with creative solutions for your customers. If you have a homogenised culture because you’re fishing from one pool, you aren’t able to think out of the box, and you’ve got a limited viewpoint of what your customer may need. And then, sort of all of that holistically, from an executive standpoint, if you are engaging with people directly, if you are bringing them to the table and asking them to contribute, if you are making their lives easier, if you’re building that loyalty, then a natural offshoot is you’re gonna have a bunch of input from really smart people to help you shape your vision, and you’re not on an island.

A lot of executives talk about how they feel like they are, you know, a single point of failure. They’re by themselves. It’s lonely at the top. It doesn’t have to be if you apply kind of a model that allows you to bring people to the table. And you’re still the arbiter, you still make the decision, but expanding that culture to allow for that kind of creative and collaborative discussion, really enables you to do well by your customer, do well by your employees, and ultimately support your bottom line.

Chris

In terms of your experience then, so just keeping on that track for a moment. You’ve had a lot of experience in different teams, with lots of different leaders, being led by them or being in part a team with them. What is it about the best ones that you’ve been with? The most effective ones that you’ve been with, that has meant that they are the best, the most effective…that you’ve then taken on yourself personally?

Neil

It’s funny. Early in my career, I think I thought of management as sort of like, kind of that more traditional, like, authoritarian way. I remember, I think it was a…it was a Tina Fey quote, and I think she was playing as a child, and she imagined, you know, being the boss, walking around saying, like, I’m the boss. I’m the boss. Do what I say. And I think I had that kind of impression when I was younger, as a lot of young managers do.

And early in my career, there was a vice president of operations at a company that I worked for, who came into every situation open, encouraged collaboration, had conversations with team members…even if they were failing, rather than scolding or even, you know, putting them on professional improvement plans, brought this more people-rooted focus to the table and worked with them to solve their problem and, ultimately, their customers’ problems.

The best leaders that I’ve seen, have looked at the workforce as an opportunity to kinda grow and leave behind a legacy, leave people in a better state than when they found them. And I think that is key to really effective leadership. You have to care about the people that you’re leading. You have to care about the organisation and the vision, but you have to care about what you’re doing. And if you start to see people as a number on a spreadsheet bringing in revenue, you’re missing a much greater opportunity.

So, for me, that has been really instructive. The people that have worked with me directly at the level that I’m at, understand where I am coming from, help me achieve kind of personal goals, or get what I need to be the most successful. Because I am, you know, I’m neurodivergent. I have some executive function challenges sometimes. And people who understand that and then help, basically create an environment where I can be productive, I can then do a job incredibly well. And they get what they need, I get what I need.

You know, there’s just a lot of backwards approaches out there, managers that don’t see people as human beings. And I think that kind of, you know, when you start to get that disconnected is when you really start to see a problem.

____Break ____

Chris

On your website for your new book, “The E-Suite”, you are described in the following way. “He is an unapologetic nerd, whose passion for improving the work environments of his team members, is matched only by his passion for overdramatic sci-fi movies.” Now I absolutely love this description.

It tells us a lot about you. And, as well as this, it highlights your inner motivation. The idea to improve the work environment for your team members. Can you tell us a bit about where this passion started? When was the moment that you were like, this is what I wanna do, this is what I wanna be, I wanna help those that work for me?

Neil

Absolutely.

So, I mentioned that my dad, owns his own business. It’s a really small insulation company. It’s him and a couple of guys that he’s worked with now for 40 years. One of the gentlemen had, pretty significant addiction problems at one point in his life. And I remember, you know, I mean, I grew up with these guys, you know, they were as much a part of the family as actual family members.

And, you know, my dad, didn’t give up on him, didn’t fire him, didn’t, you know, didn’t castigate or scold him, didn’t put him in a bad situation. He helped him through a lot of really tough situations. Because at the end of the day, he cared about him, he wanted him to be successful. He knew what he was capable of, you know, and he cared about his health as much as he cared about the work product.

And I think it really kind of changed, or it really shaped how I approach leadership. You know, my kind of biggest dream is that the legacy I leave behind is a bunch of people who I was able to open doors for or help realise their own potential. And in a very small way, right, my role is not really key, except in that it’s just clearing a path for someone’s natural ability. And I think, you know, seeing my dad who could easily have said, ‘alright, you know what? I’m gonna go hire somebody else who can do this job properly, just as effectively and isn’t gonna be, you know, this risk to me’. Instead saying, ‘no, I’m gonna make sure that this guy who’s worked for me is okay, and we’re gonna work through this together’, was really instructive.

Obviously, there’s, you know, when you’re a larger organisation, there’s significant risk, and I understand all of that. But the bottom line is, you know, from a purely numbers perspective, if you invest in your employees, they’re gonna give you the results that you need. The original working title for the book was “The ROI of Empathy” because I felt like it spoke to those leaders that really look at the bottom line. But then the humanistic approach, you know, you’re doing right by a person, and you’re gonna leave them in a better state, and it’s also gonna help your business.

So, I think that was really formative for me seeing kind of that, you know, empathetic approach that that my father had.

Chris

So, what does the ideal work environment look like for you then?

Neil

Well, for me, personally, it’s, as remote as possible. I don’t like going to the office…and as few meetings as possible, but it really depends on the person. Right? I think that’s kinda key to this this new this new world, you know, that we’re living in post COVID.

It’s very dependent on kind of the team structure and function. There are some teams that need to be in person to collaborate. There are some teams that need, you know, very little to actually do their job.

But I think the ideal environment, the root of it, is something that is people focused. Take a holistic approach to solving an employee’s problems, not just within the workplace. You know, clear out as much, kind of trash as you can from what is in their way to getting their job done, you know, and approach things as a servant leader.

So, my job as CEO is to support my executive team, whose job is to support my management team. And, you know, if you look at yourself as a facilitator for the people who are on the frontline doing the work for your clients and customers, or creating your products or whatever your business is, you know, that is the kind of environment that will naturally lead to providing the flexibility the people need, providing the compensation that people need, and fostering kind of an inclusive and diverse environment that will allow for those creative and out of the box solutions.

Chris

So, with this modern sort of world, you’ve got this remote work, you’ve got some teams that are hybrid, you’ve got some that are coming in. That puts a lot of challenges for leaders in today’s environment. What sort of challenges can you see, and how can they go about changing them?

Neil

I think for a lot of organisations, the biggest challenges are around collaboration and communication. It’s so tough to…you know, when you’re in the office every day, when you’re with somebody for 40-hours a week, there are natural conversations that happen in the hallway, in the break room.  There’s a bonding that occurs, that allows people…it sort of gives…it makes you more sympathetic to a person.  So, you give them more grace if there’s a mistake, or you’re more willing to support them because you’ve started to build that relationship.

When you are just seeing someone on a Zoom call, 1 hour a week when you’re in meetings, and you don’t build that relationship. It’s tough to kind of have that personal connection that, you know, you can foster with in-person work environments.

Additionally, there are a lot of discussions that happen in offices, in hallways, that influence decision-making. And sometimes with virtual work, decision makers are so disconnected from the people that they’re making decisions about, and they’re not checking in and having those conversations as naturally as they would, in an office setting.

So, my suggestion is increase communication and collaboration. You know, use things like Slack, use messaging apps that will work within an organisation to have those real-time conversations. But, also set aside time to check-in with your team.

Pre COVID, for about 2-years, I ran a virtual talent acquisition team. And every day, we got on a quick little call, just to check-in, chat about what was going on, make sure that everybody was okay, talk about what we needed. You know, it’s frustrating because it’s another meeting and it feels like it’s too much. But the reality is, if you don’t have that check-in, if you’re not building those relationships, you know, you’re missing something.

And then I would also encourage leaders to encourage their teams to have those interpersonal conversations as well. You know, sometimes instead of an email, pick up the phone and call somebody. Find ways within your organisation that make sense, to increase that 1-to-1 or group communication, so that you can start to build those connections that you would otherwise, sort of, naturally build within an office space.

Chris

I guess there’s a balance in that…in terms of increasing the communication and those pathways for people to be able to have those natural conversations, alongside getting in the way of them doing their work. So, there’s that leadership versus management element.

Neil

Absolutely.

Chris

What do you think is more powerful? Is it those conversations, or is it giving them space to work? Like, what is more powerful to you?

Neil

I think, you know, it really depends so much on the organisation.

But I would say, in general, my feeling would be that it’s not super time intensive to have those conversations and develop those relationships. You can do it in a 15-minute stand up call every day, which still allows, you know, 7 hours and 45 minutes for people to get their jobs done if they’re working a 40-hour week.

But I also think we have to stop focusing on time specifically. Right? Productivity is not really an equal measure to how many hours you’re working. Sure. If your job is to push a button once an hour, every hour, fair enough. That’s time related. But if your job is to push a button x number of times in a day, it shouldn’t matter to a manager, or a leader, if it’s done within an hour or if it’s done in 8 hours.

So, you know, we have a really, kind of, management on, time-management, task-management, and that gets in the way of looking at productivity holistically. So, for me, and again, you know, your mileage may vary, but for me, those conversations, and that interpersonal work, that then naturally builds communication, compatibility, and collaboration…that increases your productivity without really taking that much time out of your day, to do what you do.

Also, in a virtual environment, you’re more than likely having more time in your day, because there’s less distraction from office chatter, you know, other people. Most people who work remote, are able to focus and finish more effectively within, you know, bands of time.

So, take a step back and look at productivity holistically and not as a kind of; x number of hours in, x output out.

Chris

I love that you highlighted there that time is not directly linked to productivity.  The amount of times that you see people just…they’re distracted, as you said. Whereas if you’re not distracted, bang, you can be on it. So…

Neil

Yeah. Yeah. As you know, I love going to the office. I love seeing my team. But, I need 2 days a week at home because if I don’t, I don’t get anything actually tactical done.

There’s no way I can get anything that…because, you know, I’m in the office. I wanna see people, but people also wanna run ideas by me. They wanna talk. I’m also kind of a chatterbox, so it’s not…you know, I need that 1-on-1 time with my laptop to get, you know, the less interesting parts of my job done.

Chris

Yeah. So, that in face bit is where you do a lot of your leadership, and I guess the management side of things could be done remotely.

Neil

That’s a really fair statement. Yeah.

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____Conversation____

Chris

The book, we’ll go back to the book for a minute.

Neil

Sure.

Chris

It’s a book, The E Suite. It’s clearly been a passion project for you and your co-author. It’s about the role of empathy within leadership and how it can help build high performing organisations. Can you tell us a little bit more about the empathetic leadership that you sort of highlighted in terms of what it looks like, what it might feel like, and how it may differ from other styles of leadership, which we often see today?

Neil

Certainly. Tina Coon, who’s the co-author of the book, was the previous CEO of the company that I work for. I worked directly with her. And we found when we were working together early on, that while we had similar styles of leadership, we had very different styles of management, and very different decision-making styles.

We both really cared about our employees, wanted to make sure that they were getting what they needed, but she was a much faster decision maker. I’m in my head a lot more, I need time to process. And, so we went through this exercise with a consultant where, it was basically, like, leadership communication and how do you work with someone who is fundamentally different than you are.

First of all, the fact that she was willing to do that to, kind of, she was able to see my value, understand why we weren’t connecting initially, and willing to invest in something that, you know, really gave us an opportunity to work better together, was an example of empathetic leadership.

When you are leading with empathy, you are looking at a person and their contribution to your organisation holistically. You’re meeting them where they are. Empathy and sympathy and compassion kinda get conflated, but the root of empathy is understanding another person’s motivations and where they’re coming from. It’s not feeling sorry for them. It’s not giving them something because you feel bad. You know, a lot of people think, oh, empathetic leadership means that you’re gonna give away all of your profits to your employees.

No. What it means is, okay. This person is experiencing this in their life. They’re really good at their job. They need support in this area. How do we approach it?

So, in the book, we talk about different styles of leadership, the more traditional authoritarian leadership, leadership by consensus, you know, kind of that more parental style of leadership where you’re kind of guiding and fostering. And empathy can influence all of those types of leaders, because at certain points and in certain organisations, you need all of it. When you’re working with a really young team that doesn’t have a lot of experience and needs direction, a combination of authoritarian and parental really work well. You have to be able to, you know, tell them what they need to do because they don’t have that experience yet. But you can still do it, rooted in this idea of what does someone need and then helping to grow that. And it works not just with your employees, but your customers.

We talk about marketing, and sales, and there’s something called empathy maps, which are usually done in software, user-experience design, where they look at what a end user would need from a piece of software, and that helps frame what they develop, and how they develop the user-interface, what they’re seeing when they’re, you know, actually interfacing with the software directly. We talk about doing that for sales and marketing as well.

When you’re meeting with a customer and you’re hearing them talk about their challenges, their issues, what they need, their emotional state, what is motivating them and causing them problems, what’s keeping them up at night. That is the root of empathy; understanding where they are, and then you build your solutions around that. You market around that. You know, if…the idea of the customer hero story where, you know, we see those commercials where somebody has a specific issue and then it’s solved, and it relates to us because, oh, we have that issue too. All of that is rooted in empathy, and so applying that across every facet of your organisation is a really effective and completely low-cost strategy, to really grow your bottom line.

It doesn’t really cost anything to listen. It doesn’t cost anything to compile information. And then, you know, sometimes, all you need to do to keep an employee happy is to hear them out, understand where they’re coming from, and then offer a little bit of support to get them, you know, to wherever they need to go next, so they can continue to do the hard work for you.

Chris

It seems like a really…like you’ve suggested before, a person-centred approach, which is very much what the root of all leadership should be. And I can see there’s similarities in there with, say, servant leadership, which you’ve mentioned earlier as well. But I guess you’ve also highlighted there, that for younger inexperienced staff, you might need an authoritarian element to it initially.

So, from my understanding, empathetic leadership might be a style of leadership where you adjust based on the person in front of you. Is that correct?

Neil

Absolutely. I think any good leader has multiple styles in their toolkit and applies them as needed, depending on who they work with. You know, there are some people who really need a lot of attention, need to talk through issues, you know, and really need to kind of collaborate in that space. There are some people, you know, I mentioned I work with a lot of technical folks who really do their best work when they’re kind of left alone, but you still provide that net, that safety net for them, that support for them where they need it.

You kind of have to meet people where they are, and it takes some time to understand what motivates people the most effectively. But if you are leading with empathy, you’re understanding where they’re coming from and what they need, and then you’re giving it to them.

So, some people may need you to tell them directly what to do and how to do it, and that is, you know, one person will look at that as micromanagement. Someone else will look at that as support.

So, you really need to kind of identify where somebody’s coming from. It’s really as simple as, listening to people when they tell you what they need. And then it’s flexible, because as people grow as contributors…as people, you know, grow with a good leader…what they need from you is gonna change, and you just need to adjust and continue to hear them when they tell you what they’re looking for.

Chris

As a leader, I guess that can be quite challenging because, you need to not only be able to talk to them and hear what they’re saying, you might need to be able to see what’s going on in their life. Just from the nonverbal cues, you might need to just, be understanding to the fact they’ve come in today, and they kind of seem a little bit down.

I mean, there’s a large amount of awareness that’s needed. In order to do that, you need to be self-aware yourself. So, what role do you think that self-reflection, and just taking that time to really understand yourself, plays in being an empathetic leader.

Neil

Oh, it’s critical. I completely agree. It’s, you know…you have to start looking internally.

We talk a little bit about it in the in the book, the importance of kind of self-awareness and reflection, of taking the time, both from a mental health standpoint and from a…well, I mean, just from a health in general standpoint…is critical, because if you are not in touch with who you are and why you’re responding to things the way that you’re responding to them, you’re not gonna be able to identify that in another person.

You know, I’ve been working, you know, in leadership roles for a good chunk of my career. I’ve been working for, you know, 20 some odd years, and I’m still learning about my triggers and why I respond to certain things in certain ways. You know, I think you have to constantly be looking and identifying, ‘woah, I just blew up at that person because of x/y/z. Why did I do that? What was the…what was the cause?’ Is it, you know, some specific nugget? Is it fear? Is it a response to something that happened previously? Is this person not giving me what I need, and we’re not communicating about it? And, you have to start with yourself.

I think a lot of leaders miss that step. You know, they look at their teams, and they’re asking questions about why things aren’t working, but they’re not looking at why things aren’t working for them. A lot of leaders talk about depression and anxiety. They talk about feeling like they’re on an island. They talk about, you know, the struggles of mental health when they are in executive leadership roles, and it’s because they’re not starting with themselves and then allowing other people to also influence how, they work.

You know, I think I’ve learned the most about how I lead from my team, and then from, you know, obviously, other people and other leaders that I’ve had. But, you know, when your team tells you that you’re having a bad day, or you seem like you’re, you know, really on edge. You also have to, kinda take a step back, accept it, and try to figure out how to move forward effectively, and leave your ego behind, because we’re just humans, you know, we’re not perfect, and some CEOs seem to have this impression that, you know, they’re putting themselves on this pedestal. And, you know, once you kind of get rid of that ego and start to understand that you’re going to, need to do some work on yourself, I think you can start to move forward effectively.

____Break____

Chris

Mental health is a big topic. And for leaders, it’s something which we all need to be aware of, whether that’s for us or for those who are in our charge. And it’s something that we need to get better at approaching, definitely. There are things that organizations can do, processes and procedures they can do.

But as a leader, what could they start doing differently, let’s say, tomorrow, which would massively impact their leadership from your perspective?

Neil

Great question. It’s a challenge. Right? You’ve got to balance what’s appropriate to ask in the workplace, and what’s appropriate to kind of support in the workplace versus, you know, what you would do if that person was a personal acquaintance or a friend.

But I think what a leader could start doing immediately is encouraging kind of an open-door policy culture, where people can come and have conversations. You do that initially through going beyond kind of your span of control and talking to everyone within your organisation. Now when you’ve got 10,000 people, it’s not really realistic. But, you know, skip level meetings, meeting with people that are kind of a level down or a couple levels down from you, and having conversations not around their productivity, not around their output…but; ‘hey, is the company giving you what you need? Are you feeling supported here? Do you have the tools and resources that you need to do your job? Are there things that we could do better to make your job and your work-life balance more effective and more balanced?’

People may have a hard time having that conversation with somebody in an executive leadership position. Right? There is that sort of, white coat syndrome for professionals. Right? You get in a room with somebody with a C-suite title and, you know, I’m not gonna say anything. But if you start tomorrow, having those conversations and reinforcing that we want to hear how we can make things better for you. People will start to listen, and when people who are comfortable start to say, ‘yeah, well, you know, if I could work from home 2 days a week, that would really help’, and, ‘you know, I’ve got a lot going on personally, and, you know, I would still be able to get my job done.’ And then you do it, and they’re able to do it.

Other people who are less comfortable are gonna see, ‘wow, they spoke up and they got what they needed. Alright. I’m gonna do the same thing.’ You know, you can’t go in and ask somebody, you know, directly, like, ‘hey, are you depressed today?’ But you can certainly ask them what they need, and I think that is really important. And then, you know, empower your leadership team to do the same thing. You know, if you are at a high level within an organisation, make sure that you have team members under you that are facilitating those same conversations.

Health and wellness checks are not just about, an employee helpline or good benefits. It’s also about making sure that the environment that people work in, where they spend, you know, almost a third of their life, is safe and collaborative. It’s conducive to mental health. Encourage breaks. You know, make sure that people are getting what they need every day, and not just giving them the resources, but actually checking in with them directly.

Chris

There are organizations out there that do the token gestures. You know? Like you said, the hot lines, the, ‘oh, you can always call here if you need help’. You know, putting posters up around about mental health. But it’s really that element of having those discussions and doing your best to help them individually.

Neil

You know, I saw a quote the other day, that was like culture is not a pizza party. And I thought, yeah, that’s I’ve…you know, you see a lot of organisations that are like, we have a healthy culture. You know? We do, you know, we have a margarita machine in the office, and that means that people…it’s a fun place to work. You know, there’s a lot of, as you said, companies that kind of do the baseline, you know, they phone it in.

And it’s because they don’t really know how to have those conversations. They don’t understand that it’s really much more simple. You don’t need these big bells and whistles. You don’t need to spend a lot of money. You really just need to understand, ‘hey, first of all, I mean, the most important thing, are we compensating you appropriately?’ Because financial stress is such a major factor in so many people’s lives. And I know, you know, organisations will sort of…some people will chuff at the idea of, well, if I increase salaries, I have to increase bottom lines.

But, you know, when you see companies that have a billion dollars worth of profits and, you know, their lowest employees are not able to pay their bills. You know, that is the first thing you need to address within your organisation is pay equity.

‘And then it’s, are we providing a culture of support and inclusion? Can people have those conversations? Do they feel comfortable?’ And you’ll know, especially walking in and talking to somebody, if they are petrified of having a conversation with you, you have a real issue with your culture. You have to start to change it immediately, and the way that you do that is, as you said, it’s just those discussions. It’s having those conversations, and then it’s following through because the worst thing you can do is ask somebody what they need and then not give it to them.

And if they need something that is untenable for the organisation, unreasonable, which happens sometimes, you still need to have a follow-up conversation to say, ‘hey, you need transportation to the office. We can’t give you a company car. But what if we invest in a ride share program so that you have better access?’ We had somebody at a previous job who was late for work pretty much every day, and their issue was, they had to get their kids to school and then they had to get on public transportation. And American public transportation is atrocious. So, they needed something, and we couldn’t, you know…we can’t give everybody cars. But instead, we did kind of a compensated ride share program; if you pick up a co-worker and take them to work, we’ll pay for gas.

There are creative ways to solution around helping somebody get what they need, to be able to effectively do your job. When you take stress away from someone, they’re more productive, they’re more loyal, they’re gonna stay with the organisation, and they’re gonna work harder for you, because they’re gonna wanna continue to get those perks. And that’s the best-case scenario.

Chris

I think with having those conversations, the following up, there’s a lot of leadership skill within that. Do you think that organisations are effectively training leadership skills into their leaders, or do they just train them to manage and then just let them loose?

Neil

Yeah. I think they train them to manage and then let them loose.

There really aren’t a lot of robust leadership development and training programs that I’ve seen effectively. It is all teaching those hard skills, the how do you time-manage, how do you performance-manage, you know, what is the appropriate way to judge productivity.

You know, I think companies are trying, and I think it’s nobly intended, but I don’t see a lot of training around those soft skills. I didn’t learn how to lead from any formal program in my career. I learned how to lead from leaders. I learned how to lead from example, from watching other people do it, seeing how people responded to it, and then emulating it, you know, which is kind of the root of empathy, right. It’s that emulation of something that you understand in somebody else. So, you know, I think there’s a lack of leadership development within organisations.

Chris

What would effective leadership training look like to you?

Neil

Oh, that’s a great question.

I think at the root of it, as silly as it sounds, it would look like a conversation. It would look like the start of that, kind of, that trickle down of talking to a person, understanding what they need. ‘Look, if I’m able to help you feel better about your work environment, if I’m able to share the strategic vision with you, if I’m able to collaborate, if I’m bringing you to the table’. How you’re feeling about that, is how you’re gonna want your teams to feel about that as well.

But there’s definitely a lot of structure. I think it starts, again, with self-reflection. I think any good leadership program would have, kind of, a big portion of working on yourself as a leader, understanding your triggers, and then it would also include mental health resources. How do you not only navigate your employees’ mental health to make sure that their wellness is taken care of, but your own? How do you lead effectively when you are not doing well yourself? Because that is that’s always a challenge.

I think a comprehensive approach like that would be much more effective than, kind of, traditional performance management training.

Chris

There’s an element in what you’ve described there, which to me sort of sounds a bit like coaching.

Neil

Yeah. Absolutely. I think every leader, every manager should have an executive coach of some kind. And in the same way that I advocate for therapy across the board.

There is nothing more powerful than being able to talk to someone, bounce ideas off them, and get a different perspective. You know, someone asked me once if I had one piece of advice to give to leaders what it would be, and my recommendation is talk to everybody. Talk to people who are at your level. Talk to people who are above you. Talk to people who are below you. Talk to the person whose job you want, talk to the person whose job you don’t want, learn and try to amalgamate your approach from the best of what you see around you.

And coaching sessions, especially with someone who is really effective, can take an inflection point for a leader and just catalyse it and push it so much further.

Chris

So if I was gonna do a coaching question with you; what would the one challenge that you are facing right now be?

Neil

Oh…that is a great question. I was not expecting that.

I think the biggest challenge I am facing right now is, for me, it’s balancing my mental health and exhaustion with transformational leadership. I took over as CEO, as I mentioned, of this company that I’m working for at the beginning of last year, and we’ve had a significant transformation, realignments, reorganisations. And, it is an emotionally taxing situation where you’re making decisions that are, in the necessary interest of the business continuity, but then impact a person in a negative way.

It’s a lot to hold, especially when you, you know, when you care, and that is that is an area where I have always struggled. So, I’m, you know, I’m working through that approach as best as possible. But that is a…it’s always a challenge, right, to try to take the personal impact it has, because it’s not about me. It’s about the organisation. It’s about these people.

But there is an impact to me as a human. So, you know, that is always a, that’s always a challenging situation to be in.

Chris

What would it look like if you were better at that?

Neil

That’s also a great question.

I think it would…the ways that I am trying to get better at it, one is talking about it. I’ve started…I have a medium blog where I talk about mental health and kind of what that anxiety feels like and looks like, what depression, in the context of leadership feels like and look like, how to work through it.

You know, the other thing I think is self-care. Sometimes, it’s very easy to get overwhelmed by what you have to do for other people, and, you know, you think that, ‘well, I’ve gotta do this so I don’t have time to prioritise myself.’ You know, you put the mask on first. You’re the best version of yourself when you’re taken care of.

So, I think that would probably be the area that I would…I’d need to work on, to kinda be more effective in that area.

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____Conversation____

Chris

I have actually read some of your blogs. Let’s start with the first one, which I thought I’d talk about here. You pointed out about anxiety, and it’s one of the most prevalent mental health, challenges that we have at the moment in the workplace and wider in society.

So, what can a leader do better to prepare themselves for the challenge of anxiety, both within themselves and within those in their care?

Neil

Yeah. That’s a great question.

I think the first part is acknowledging it. Right? There is such a stigma about mental health and such a stigma about anxiety, and it’s gotten better. But I can’t tell you how many times I have talked to leaders about challenges, and the conversation is going well, until the word anxiety or the word mental health or the word self-care is mentioned. And then there’s, like, this shutdown. Because there’s this perception of, like, ‘well, that’s not something, you know, I’m fine. I don’t have that problem.’ ‘Well, you were just describing how you’re concerned about future outcomes, and that is anxiety, but you don’t wanna call it anxiety, okay.’

So, I think the first thing is acknowledging that it’s gonna happen. The second part is getting help. If you have not gone through therapy, if you have not talked to a coach, if you have not done inner work through meditation or spiritual practice, if you have not connected at that level, that’s an important first step. Because, those tools that you get from therapy, from coaching, from spiritual practice, whatever works for you personally, those tools that you get are really important to being able to manage your own levels of anxiety. Once you have those tools, you can help others, not in a formal sense, you’re not, you know, ‘I went to therapy so now I can be your therapist’, but in a way where you can identify those reactions and those triggers in other people.

You know, I’ve had employees who, this is a silly example, but if I schedule a meeting, you know, if it’s 6 o’clock, I schedule a meeting for 9 AM the next morning, and I don’t give a lot of context…they freak out because they’re like, ‘oh god, you know, is this a termination conversation? Did I do something wrong?’ Some people would just, yeah, accept the meeting. No big deal. But for those, when you see those kind of reactions in people, that’s where you adjust your communication style.

You give them…I have an employee who I work with now. I give her a call before I schedule a meeting just so she knows what the context is, so that she doesn’t worry. She fully admits that she’s a very anxious person, is open about it, which is wonderful because it gives me the ability to meet her where she’s at, and make sure that I don’t spike that anxiety. It’s all around, kind of, that communication, and a lot of that starts from knowing enough about what your triggers are, that you can start to identify them in other people.

Chris

I mean, part of the stigma that you actually have highlighted, that I think there is still a stigma, is that if I was to share that I suffer from anxiety, I have depression, that maybe that might then impact my career progression, that it might keep me where I am, or maybe I might have to look elsewhere because people might start thinking differently and behaving differently around me. How much do you think that plays a role in people’s ability to share?

Neil

I think it plays a huge role, and I completely agree. And that’s one of the reasons I am talking about it, even though it is incredibly uncomfortable for me. Because if you’re working and your manager, and your manager’s manager…and no one’s talking about it, of course, you’re not gonna talk about your mental health challenges because you’re gonna be so concerned that they’re gonna see you as a huge risk. And you’ve gotta protect yourself and your job.

That is completely understandable. But if your manager, and your manager’s manager are saying, ‘man, I’m having a really tough time. You know, I’ve been dealing with this anxiety around this and this and, you know, I really want us to be successful, but, you know, here are my triggers and here’s how I could really use your guys’ help.’ They are gonna be much more comfortable coming to you and having that same conversation.

Even if you’re not a particularly anxious person, talking about anxiety in general, talking about challenges, talking about mental health, opening that door is the only way that people will walk through it. If you don’t start the conversation as a leader, you are doing a disservice to your employees because even if you would not have that reaction of, oh, that person is a risk…by not addressing it directly, you’re not giving them the space to breathe and have that conversation with you.

Chris

As a leader who’s got someone who’s coming to them with anxiety, like you said you have. What different things do you do as a result of those meetings? Let’s say, the next day? Do you change anything about the way that maybe they’re working, the way that you said you’ve started phoning them about meetings? But in terms of, like, the workload, do you change the workload on that person as a result, or do you ask them what they need in terms of level of work, and do we need to take something off you? Do you make the decision, or do you let them?

Neil

That’s a great question.

I would say both and neither. And the reason being, so because someone has anxiety or mental health challenges, or they have a the need or an approach to things differently. We wanna do everything that we can within a space to make sure that they’re getting what they need. But at the same time, there are other people on the team, other people within the organisation who also do similar jobs, and it’s not equitable if we say, well, you’re a more anxious person, so we’re gonna give you less of a workload than this person who’s in the same role making the same amount of money. Right? You kinda gotta balance that. So, it’s about reasonable accommodations. It’s about, you know, what is realistic.

If a person is in a role where they are overwhelmed and they are dealing with the same amount of workload as another person who is not overwhelmed. You have to look at, you know, what is that person capable of? What works for them? And in some cases, it’s a conversation around, ‘is this the right role for you? You’re really good at this, this, and this, but this area over here becomes a huge challenge for you. Unfortunately, that’s core to the position. We can’t kinda get rid of that.’

So, then you look at repurposing. How do you put people in the best roles for them so that they can be more effective?

I have had individuals on my team who started in talent acquisition, and a big thing about talent acquisition is that interpersonal relationship. Right? You gotta build that relationship. You gotta be comfortable picking up the phone and calling somebody. There are people who are very uncomfortable with those phone calls, but they’re really hard workers. And I’ve hired recruiters before that, you know, they’ve got the greatest work ethic in the world, but, man, they just struggle with that conversation. So, okay, what’s another option for them? What is something where they are less outward facing and more inward facing?

Those are the kind of things that you wanna do because if you let an employee determine their workload, it’s a little unfair to other employees who may be in similar situations. But if you work collaboratively with them to say, ‘okay, we can reasonably do x, y, and z to get you where you need to be’, or ‘this isn’t really gonna work, but let’s try to find something that does’. That is the way to kind of, I think, approach it.

And in some cases, you know, it might mean that a person transitions out of your organisation. But if you do it in the right way, and you make sure that they have an understanding of why it’s happening, and you give them time and resources, you know, you’re leaving behind a legacy of a person who learned something from that experience. And then you’re doing something that’s good for them, and for your organisation, rather than just saying, like, ‘you’re having a hard time, you can do less work than this person over here’, which is then gonna cause that person to potentially leave.

There’s a balancing act, but I think it’s all about reasonable accommodations.

Chris

I love that phrase, reasonable accommodations. It literally says on the tin what you mean.

Neil

Right.

Chris

One of your other blogs, which I found really interesting, is because we have both written blogs about it, is impostor syndrome. Can you talk through where you believe this comes from, what causes it, and how a leader can deal with that? Because mostly, it’ll be people in leadership positions that suddenly realise, ‘ah’.

Neil

Yeah. It’s interesting because I think…it’s tough to understand exactly where it comes from, because I think it comes from a different place for everybody. I think some of it is societal pressure, this idea that you constantly have to be, like, doing something new, doing the next thing in your career, pushing yourself up. So, there’s this idea that, you know, if you’re not constantly innovating or moving forward, then you’re not achieving.

I was, quote, unquote, ‘a high achiever’ when I was a kid, and then I levelled out and kinda normalised. But the praise and the pressure that I felt as a high achiever when I was younger, has kind of influenced the remainder of my life, and I’ve had to do a lot of work around it to figure out, you know, why do I not feel like I deserve the success? Why do I feel like somebody’s gonna pull the mask off and realise that I don’t know what I’m doing? And it’s because, for me personally, because of that early achievement. I’m constantly pushing myself to something more, and I never feel like I’m getting that same level of…I don’t know if it’s recognition or, like, acceptance that I had when I was younger and I was getting those accolades, which is…it seems silly on the surface, but it’s really deeply rooted in kind of my mental health and my approach to things. But I think mileage varies. Right?

I’ve heard some people say that, you know, people who are part of a more marginalised group, society’s impact really plays a huge part in them feeling like they are not enough. It’s this real challenge, around, you know, identifying and accepting your success, and your place in the world, and saying firmly, like, I deserve this. I deserve to take up space. I have the right to take up space and operate at this level.

But, yeah, it is it’s a big challenge. It’s something I struggle with constantly. I have to, kind of, pretty consistently remind myself that, you know, I have worked to get where I am, and I do deserve it, and I am capable.

But even, you know, even before this podcast, right, I had to sit myself down and be like, alright, you do know what you’re talking about. You’re not gonna get on there and sound like a complete fool.

It is yeah. It’s a real struggle. And I think that’s the other part of it, right, is talking about it, because I got so many people who reached out to me afterwards, like, ‘man, I feel that way too’. You know, I’m constantly worried that somebody’s gonna find out I’m a fraud. Like, well, you’re not a fraud. I know you’re not a fraud…but, you know, we’re all of our own worst critics in that area, and it sides so intrinsically to our mental health.

Chris

I also feel like there’s, like, two sides to the coin as well. Like, you have one side, which is the imposter syndrome where you’re in a position and suddenly you’ve got that reality checking. Like, am I meant to be here? Do I deserve to be here?

And on the flip side of that is, you’re in a position that’s maybe lower down, and you feel like…I feel like I should be up there. And then there’s that imposter syndrome of, how can I get there when no one is recognising me, to be able to push me up?

I think there’s 2 sides to that coin that, one of them is unspoken of. One of them is starting to be spoken of. I just feel like there needs to be a hell of a lot more discussions around recognition definitely, and communication, and that’s something within leadership that we definitely aren’t training people for in any way.

Neil

Yeah. I completely agree. I think, that’s interesting.

I definitely felt…it’s funny that you mentioned that, because now thinking about it, at certain points in my career where I was kind of not getting that recognition and not feeling that. I sort of had that flip, a little bit of where I was feeling that, like, ‘I don’t know if I’m meant to be here because either I’m approaching this in completely the wrong way, or they’re approaching it in completely the wrong way, and one of us doesn’t deserve to be here.’ And the reality is both of us do. It’s just that it’s this, need, to have a conversation of those different approaches. And I love that people are talking more about it.

People are also talking about neurodivergence and what that looks like, because approaching things from different perspectives, you know, people who have different…not just different world views, but different sort of biological imperatives on how they solve problems, you know, it can make you feel isolated, it can make you feel like you’re a crazy person, it can make you feel like you’re the only one in the room who sees a colour as blue and everybody else sees it as green.

And I love that there is this movement to discuss it, and this beginning of the acknowledgment of, ‘hey, that, kind of, neurodiversity is really important within an organisation’. Diversity of thought can really, kind of elevate, your organisation to something new, where if you’ve got a homogenised culture, everybody thinking the same way from the same background, you’re not gonna look at an approach differently.

I agree. We need to talk about it a lot more.

Chris

There’s something that I wrote in a blog post, a couple of blogs ago, which was about love languages. I don’t know if you’ve heard about love languages.

Neil

I have. Yeah.

Chris

And, I sort of translated it into the work environment. To go, ‘well, a lot of people aren’t feeling recognition right now, whether that’s a leader feeling recognised from those below, or whether it’s those below not feeling recognised from those above.’

And it’s this idea that we might be sharing the way that we recognise it with them, but that’s not necessarily the way that they recognise recognition. So, giving someone like a bonus at Christmas…to that person, that might not be how they recognise value, they just think, ‘oh, they’re just paying me to keep me here’.

Neil

Yeah. Absolutely.

I love the idea of reframing love languages in a professional way. That is phenomenal.

You’re absolutely right. I mean…a pat on the back, a literal, like, ‘hey, you’re doing a good job’ to one person might be more valuable than a bonus.  Which seems counterintuitive, but sometimes the non-monetary rewards are what motivate somebody.

And that, for me, is why I think empathy is so important, because once you understand what motivates a person, you can start to shape your way of approaching them to make them feel recognised.

I’ll have to check your blog out.  That sounds that sounds like a like an awesome approach.

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____Conversation____

Chris

I wanna go to the bit that you’ve touched on several times now, which is diversity.

So, diversity among leadership teams is a huge topic right now, be it ethnic diversity, be it age diversity, neurodiversity.

Can you give us an insight as to how a model using empathetic leadership, which is what you’re championing, might play a role with changing the culture within an organisation to promote both diversity within the team, but also ultimately promote diversity within the leadership team within that organisation?

Neil

Absolutely.  So, I think there’s a couple of things from an empathetic standpoint.

You know, I think a lot of companies look at diversity as a box to check.  Right?  They’ve got something that they’ve gotta meet. They have to do it because, you know, that’s the way that the culture is moving.  And what they don’t look at it as; an opportunity to diversify thought leadership within their organisation.

And that’s sort of the point of diversity when it comes to organisational growth.  Right?  It’s this idea of different perspectives, different attitudes, different approaches, different ways of doing things, different world views, all of that come together and coalesce into this sort of beautiful collaboration that pushes something forward.

Empathy based diversity is, again, understanding what your organisation means and then understanding what people can contribute to it.  You know, when you’re hiring someone, it’s not just looking at; do they have the technical skills to do the job.  It’s what else do they bring to the culture.

A lot of companies talked about culture fit for a very long time.  You know, ‘do you fit in with our culture here?’  And that, I think, is one of the most dangerous conversations to have because what that does is it homogenises your culture.  It says: if you, in some cases, look like, sound like, talk like, think like we do, then you’re gonna fit in great here.

What we should be looking at is cultural additives.  What are you going to add to the culture here?  What perspective do you have that we don’t?  What approach do you have that we don’t?  What background do you have that we don’t?

And when you start to approach it in that way, your organisation will start to look more ethnically diverse.  It will start to look more diverse from a mix of male and female.  It’ll start to look more, neurodiverse.  It will naturally start to occur because you’re gonna be looking at people who bring something new to your organisation.

And I think there’s a couple ways to do it.

1 is to make sure that your hiring practices are bias free.  You know, that is a really important factor.  We talk a little bit about it in the book, how you can use blind resumes, so people don’t see names, so they don’t assume ethnicity based on a name.  And then, you know, you conduct your interviews in that way, where you’re asking what someone can add to a culture, not just what skills do you have, but what can you bring here.

And then for me, I think it’s really important to have employee centric committees, employee centric groups, that are focusing on diversity, inclusion, and equity within an organisation.  Because sometimes when you’re at the 10,000 foot view and you’re leading strategically, you may not see what’s happening in your middle tier.  And it’s really important to hear from your employees directly, ‘hey, you know, we’re missing the mark on x, y, and z.’

We did this recently within the last year, created a DEI committee within the organisation that I’m running, and, you know, brought to the surface some real issues that we needed to address and look at, and things that we thought we were doing well that we could certainly do better.  You know, it’s a…diversity within an organisation is an all hands on deck job.  Everyone has a responsibility for it, and you have to start as a leader at the top, kind of, pushing that metric, but understanding why you’re doing it and sharing why you’re doing it.  Because if you just talk about diversity for the sake of diversity, it feels very condescending, especially to people who are in those marginalised groups.

It’s also not gonna help your business.

It will if you look, you know, as I said, from, like, a culturally additive standpoint.

Chris

I think the empathetic leadership approach that you mentioned is so accepting of diversity, particularly like neurodiversity.  For example, if you’ve got someone who’s autistic, that maybe the noises within the office is really distracting, or the smells that come with that, or the lighting, all of those positions.  If you’re suddenly empathetic and you say, well, you can do this job from home in your own comfortable environment, that’s so accepting and celebrates that, and realises that they can bring something to this organisation which they wouldn’t be able to in the classic model of; ‘here’s your booth, here’s your surroundings, do it now’.

Neil

Yeah. Absolutely.

And first of all, I think from a moralistic standpoint, it’s just the right thing to do.  It’s just…there’s nothing better than being able to offer someone, as I said, like, opening a door for someone who’s not had that door open for them because people are so closed off…but it helps your organisation grow.  It helps your bottom line.

It creates a new avenue, and a new way to look at problems, and it’s so powerful when your organisation looks like the world outside.  It brings in more customers.  It brings in different viewpoints.  It brings in untapped markets.  You might have a product that you’re developing for a very specific subset of individuals that could easily be applicable in a slightly different way, to a different group, that you would never learn if you didn’t have that person within your organisation.

In an ideal world, right, we’re all colour blind and none of that matters.  But, in reality, we all come from different backgrounds and different approaches, and there are different challenges.  Acknowledging them and then doing the hard work of making sure that you and your organisation are supporting those endeavours and pushing that forward is critical and will help your revenue, will help your bottom line.

Chris

And I think there’s that element as well of, you cannot become what you cannot see.

So, unless you celebrate diversity and you promote diversity, people below just think, well, there’s not a position for someone like me there.

Neil

Yeah. Absolutely.

It’s incredibly important to not only talk the talk, but to walk the walk as well.

If you talk about it, but your leadership team is homogenised, then you’re really not doing the hard work.

Again, diversity for diversity’s sake is condescending.  But when you’re truly embracing it, leaders will rise naturally from multiple backgrounds, from multiple perspectives, from anywhere across the neurodivergent spectrum, from any ethnicity, from any sexual orientation, gender identity, you will start to see people naturally rising once they have the ability to do so with an organisation.

They will step-up, and it’s your job to open that door and provide whatever they need to be successful.

And then, you know, what a great opportunity to have an organisation that looks like the world at large.

Chris

I saw a quote the other day.  I’m gonna do it a massive injustice here…but it was that if you could have the 10 smartest people in a room, but if they all think the same, they’re gonna miss something.

Neil

Exactly. That is…I completely agree.

It’s that diversity of thought, is the most critical aspect of an organisation that is trying to solve problems.

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Chris

So, another unique challenge that I think there is in the world today, which I would like to get your perspective on, is the idea that in our workplaces, in our organisations, we have such a wide, multigenerational team.  From the baby boomers through to generations x, y, and z.

And, you know, it’s just gonna keep getting bigger, particularly as the age that people retire is pushing on and on and on.  You now have this massive age diverse team.

Within any organisation, we have to juggle the skill sets that people have, the different perspectives that people have.  Just what are some of the challenges that you see that comes from this multigenerational workforce, and then what can leaders do to navigate that?

Neil

Yeah.  It is tough.  The multigenerational workforce…every generation has a very different approach to business and how they operate.

I was having this conversation with someone the other day around, you know, if you think about it, job hopping was this big…you know, more experienced generations see job hopping as disloyal, see it as, you know, you never really specialise in a skill set.  You know, you don’t get enough depth of experience.

Whereas, younger generations, 1, they see it as, ‘hey, I have a diverse perspective because I’ve seen how 6 or 7 different companies do this thing’. And 2, ‘why am I gonna stay at a company that isn’t providing me what I need? Why is loyalty something expected from me when it’s not something that’s expected from the organisation?’

And I think it’s because the Gen x, Gen y, Gen z grew up seeing Gen x and baby boomers be loyal, stay with companies for 20 years with the expectation of a pension, and then get nothing out of it because companies focused on their bottom line and shifted that model, and why would you stay with an organisation?

So, I think as leaders, we have to first acknowledge the differences.  And then in the same way that we manage different people differently, we have to approach generations differently within the workplace.

So, when you are motivating a younger person, it’s a little bit different than the way that you would motivate a person who is a little bit older.

The big challenge for me I found is I’m sort of in the middle.  I guess, I’m technically I’m an elder millennial.  I’m, like, right on the cusp of x and millennial.  When baby boomers and Gen z interact, there seems to be this, like, mutual distaste for how the other, approaches things.  The baby boomers feel like there’s too much expectation of a seat at the table.  You know, ‘hey, I was quiet, and I coloured for the first 20 years of my career. You need to do the same thing.’ And, you know, Gen z is like, ‘well, no, I have something to contribute. You should at least hear what I have to say.’

So, the biggest challenge for me has been how do you modulate, kind of between the two.

And I found that having those conversations and saying, like, ‘look, there’s no harm in letting somebody who is possibly a little bit less experienced spread their wings a bit.  People learn more from failure than success, so let them fail.  Accept a culture where failure is okay because you learn from it.’

And then also have this conversation with the younger generation around, like, ‘hey, what this person who has 30 years of experience is trying to do here is, not be condescending, they’re trying to share the wisdom.  You know, they’ve been down this road.  They’ve seen how it’s done.  Do what you feel is best but listen to the person that is talking to you’.

And I have mentioned it before, but that’s been my biggest device to people at all stages of their career.  Listen to someone younger, listen to someone older, listen to someone at the same level.  Have those conversations.  You don’t have to change the way you approach things just because someone said that a different approach is the way to go.  But open yourself up to those world views.  And then as a leader from the top, encourage that diversity of thought, encourage problem solving, and bring everyone to the table to have those conversations.

I made some changes to the way that we do staff meetings internally and invite literally everyone in the company, from the intern up to the senior vice president.  Everyone has an opportunity to contribute.

Now, obviously, you know, in a 10,000 person company this is not realistic.

But regardless, give everyone an opportunity to contribute and facilitate respect and collaboration between those generations.  Because the way that you recruit, manage, train…you have to take a different approach that is individualised to those people, based on where their backgrounds come in.

Which is why, again, empathy, understanding where they’re coming from, what their background is, what generation they’re a part of, but also what they’ve experienced…is really important.

Chris

I think you touched on it there as well with this sort of job-hopping idea.

It’s long gone now this job for life situation.  You start when you’re 20, 21, all the way through to retirement.

Most workers, I think, now are gonna have, like, two to three careers.  And within those careers could be multiple jobs, and then they completely change what they do.

Within this, there is a unique challenge, I would say, to leaders.  Which is this idea of a legacy, and an idea of having that, succession plan in place.  Picking out that individual that’s gonna take over from you.

It’s such a transient, sort of, workplace that we now live in.

How do you foresee your legacy being taken on, your succession, if you’ve got this transient team around you?

Neil

Wow.  That’s a great question.

I think there are two…I think there’s two approaches.

One is, obviously, try to do what you can to be an organisation that people want to stay with.  The best organisations are ones where you can have four or five different jobs without having to change companies.  Where you can test out whether something works for you, and have the flexibility to know that if it doesn’t, you’re still going to have a job, and that an organisation is going to try to use you to the best of your abilities.

That’s one thing that would actually start to bring that sort of traditional job for life approach back.  Although, it’s a challenging time, and it’s not fool-proof.  It’s a good start.  To kind of, be able to lengthen the time of people’s tenure.

But even having said that, you know, there are so many opportunities out there, and people will obviously move on.

I think, first of all, having an actual succession plan is really important.  And part of that includes a training and development plan.  Part of that includes a skills and leadership development program.  Right?  You wanna look at your next level, and then the level below, and start to identify…assume, first of all, that any one of those people could, with the right skills, do the next level’s job.  And then start to teach and train and identify who that next generation of talent is going to be.

I jumped around a lot in the beginning of my career, probably one-to-two-year tenures at most.  I’ve been at my current organisation for seven years, and the reason I’ve been there as long as I have, which is the longest I’ve ever been anywhere, is because I was given the opportunity to move up, move over, move around, try new things, pull things in.  ‘Hey, you know what? I’m not really…actually as good at this as I thought I would be, let’s realign.’

When you have really good talent, and really capable and intelligent people who have good work ethics, empowering them to try, and allowing them to fail without the risk of them losing their job, is the way to get them to the next level.

My replacement, if I move on or if something happens to me, may not have the exact same skill set that I do, may not have the same approach that I do.  The position may not look the same, because it should be customisable based on the next person’s talent that is moving in.  And so there’s a lot of opportunity to kind of build out a fully robust succession plan, if you’re actually looking at individual contributions and then what their leadership skills and what their trajectory could look like.

And I think you’ll naturally build loyalty, which will make the succession planning a little bit easier so that you won’t have to be constantly shuffling, because it costs a hell of a lot more these days to hire someone than it does to train them and keep them in the organisation, and grow them.

Chris

It’s interesting, as you’ve sort of gone through all that.

In my mind, I’m just…while I’m listening to you, I’m going, ‘I wonder if he has a succession plan?’  Because you’ve only been in your position for, you said, just short of a year now, is it?

Neil

Yeah.

Chris

Have you already thought about it?

Neil

I do.  Yeah.  I have.

So, there’s essentially three other executives on our, quote, unquote, executive team.  And I’ve already kind of identified, you know, if something happens or if…I hate to say, like, ‘if you get hit by a car’ because that feels like you’re inviting negativity. So, I’m gonna say, ‘if I win the lottery’.

But absolutely.  And then I’ve encouraged each of them to establish a succession plan as well.  Start to build out the possibility of someone coming into that role.

Because even if you don’t leave, right, you’re building skills for a team that is going to help the company, help you, and ultimately help that person.

I think it’s critical that you have a formalised succession plan at all levels of your organisation.  I think you shouldn’t necessarily be focused completely on what if a person leaves.  It’s more about; how do you get someone to the next level.

It’s really, less a succession plan, and more an expansion plan…I guess, is the is the way to look at it.

Chris

I’ve heard that, sort of, be referenced before as ‘working yourself out of a job’.  The idea that if you want a promotion, you need to train someone to be your position in order to earn that promotion.  Otherwise, you’re gonna leave a gap behind, and I think that’s a really good, sort of, positive way of…if you want to earn your way up, you have to train someone else.

Neil

Yeah.  Absolutely.

And I think there’s a lot of fear around that. Right?

Like, I’ve worked with leaders who compartmentalise data.  They hoard skills, and they don’t want their team to advance because they’re afraid that it is gonna threaten their position within the organisation.

I get it. Right?

I mean, a lot of organisations do the wrong thing, and they cut the legs out from underneath someone who’s more experienced because they’re more costly.  And then they put someone into that role that is, underprepared or less expensive mostly because it’s a cost cutting measure.

That’s terrible. It’s awful when organisations do that.  But you’re missing a step if you focus on that when you’re in a leadership level, because you are stymieing someone’s ability to grow.  You’re stymieing your own ability to grow.

If you don’t have a good succession plan for the person who is going to step into your shoes, there’s no way you’re gonna step into somebody else’s.  Because an organisation is gonna look at you and say you have no depth within your group.  We need you to stay because there’s no one who can take this position from you.

You know.  It also just destroys loyalty.  If you keep people where they are because you’re afraid of them potentially replacing you.  They’re going to identify that, and they’re going to realise that they will be able to get their skills developed elsewhere.

Chris

It’s interesting you put in there about the cost-cutting measures and people being sort of, like, laid off.  There is a sort of culture.  I don’t know where it started, but there’s that culture of; in order to save money, we need to do mass layoffs.

I think that’s one of the most dangerous things to culture within organisations.

People want to feel entrusted and that two-way trust street, which is required between a leader and their team.  What would you say would be a better approach for organisations, if they are facing financial troubles, than just mass layoffs?  Is there something that you can actually picture that might be a better approach?

Neil

My first recommendation is kind of your operating expenses.  Right?  Look at anything; tools, technologies.  Look for anything that is not being used to kind of its full performance.  Right?  Anything that you can cut at that level, then look for opportunities for efficiencies.

If you’ve got a bloated corporate team, for example, that are not revenue driven and…you’re looking at, ‘well, I gotta cut these people’.   Consider turning some of those individuals, into revenue generating salespeople, talent acquisition specialists.  If you’re not in a situation where you have to immediately cut from the bottom line…plan for the possibility of that downturn, and start to look at ways of repurposing people.  Take someone who is doing a job that is fully on overhead, and find an opportunity for them to make revenue in some capacity.

Start with kind of cuts that are material from a non-personnel standpoint, then move to kind of repurposing existing staff to increase your top line instead of eliminating your bottom line.

And if you do have to go down the road of lay-offs as, you know, some organisations just, you know, have really bad years…COVID impacted a lot of people in a lot of different ways.

Communicate it appropriately and make sure that you’re making the decisions holistically and looking at kind of every aspect of your business, because a round of layoffs is the quickest way to erode trust.  Multiple rounds of layoffs, completely detrimental to an organisation.

It happens.

Sometimes it’s necessary.

But the worst thing you can do is do it in a vacuum and not have honest communication around it.

And then you absolutely have to make sure that you take care of the people that you’re laying off.  You know, go over and above with severance packages.  Go over and above with maintaining people’s benefits.

Do that, so that you…first of all, again, moralistically, it’s the right thing to do.  But also, don’t destroy your company’s reputation in the process of making the changes that you need to make.

It’s the worst part of any job to have to impact somebody’s livelihood.  Acknowledge how important that is and make those decisions kind of in reference to it.

Chris

That’s some really good advice, I think, there.  Definitely, as well, with…we have financial issues at the moment around the world, so there’s probably a lot of people that will be listening, that are in that bit of, ‘oh, we’re about to go through layoffs’.  And I think the idea of; communicate it the right way, and to make sure you look after those people, and that’s that empathetic leadership approach that you have mentioned.

Neil

Yeah.

____Break____

Chris

One last thing that I’ve been playing around with, and I wanted to sort of have a discussion about it with someone…is this idea that there are many people that have their work self and their, sort of, home self.

And there’s almost like that playoff between the two.

And that really, sort of, challenges people’s authenticity.  What’s your advice and your thoughts on this?

Neil

Oh, that is a tough one.

So, I think I spent probably the first fifteen years of my career very inauthentic. There was a huge dichotomy between kind of who I am as a person, and who I present.  My work life was very presentational.

And for me, it was kind of a very specific reason.  I work in tech and defence, and defence is a very traditionally conservative ex-military organisation, and I am an openly gay man.  So, there’s a lot of risk.  Right?

In America, defence contractors can fire you for being gay.  It’s a very kind of odd stipulation.  Defence contractors are not held to the same standard as commercial organisations within the country.  So, it was a huge risk for me personally to be out at work.

It’s tough.  Right?  Because on the one hand, I want to bring my authentic self to every discussion, to every job. On the other hand, I need to keep my income.  So, how do I manage that risk?

What I found is that you have to feel safe, and you have to be in an organisation that allows you to be yourself before you can come out and be authentically you.  Regardless of who you are, you know, whether you’re LGBT, whether you’re a marginalised group, or whether you’re neurodivergent…regardless, you’re gonna safeguard a part of yourself if you do not feel safe.

So, to a person who is feeling inauthentic in their workplace, I would just say, I empathise.  I’m sorry.  That’s terrible.  I hope that you find an organisation that provides what you need.

The job is of the leader to make that organisation a safe space for people to feel like they can be themselves.  It is our job as leaders, as managers, as executives, as business owners…it is our job to make sure that we are facilitating that, and we are walking the walk.

We have to create those spaces for people, and the only way to do that is to be authentically ourselves.

Now I’m the CEO now, so nobody can fire me.  So…and then I guess private equity firm could…but nobody right?  Nobody’s gonna be able to fire me for that.  So, my job is now to push hard to make sure that everybody knows who I am, scars and all, mental health issues…and then, ‘hey, you can be yourself here, you can open yourself up’.

But it’s tough because there are a lot of places where being yourself puts you at massive risk.  I don’t know if that answers your question necessarily.

For me, it’s just, you know, the more opportunity you get, the more power that you get within an organisation or within your career, the more you have a responsibility to leverage that to create places for people to be able to be their authentic self.

Chris

I like that answer in the sense that it’s creating that psychological safety for people, so they don’t feel that being themselves is not gonna be enough.

Neil

Yeah.

Chris

And that being me is good enough.

Neil

Yeah.  You’re right.

I mean, it also I think it also impacts imposter syndrome. Right?

Being able to say, like, ‘hey, everything that you’re bringing to the table is valuable, is valid’.

You know, everyone deserves to take up space.  Our humanness, our soul, you know, that is kind of the root of what we are and who we are, not what we do.  And so, if you lead from that perspective, if you create an environment where you are accepting the whole person, not just tolerating, but accepting and embracing and supporting the whole person, you’re going to get more from your team.  You’re gonna create an environment where people can be authentic, and that’s just gonna help ultimately your bottom line because it’ll attract more diverse individuals who can bring more to your organisation.

Chris

I think we’ve had such a powerful conversation and gone to so many different places, which I absolutely love.  Is there anything that you would like to share to other leaders that are listening to this podcast right now, and you think would be really powerful for them?

Neil

No.  You know, I would just say, in the world, kinda where it is right now, which can be a very kinda scary and difficult place.  Understand that every person that works for you, that works with you, has a million different stories inside of them and a million different things going on.  Be sensitive to the fact that everybody’s gonna be approaching life and work differently.

Our obligation as leaders is to help and facilitate and support the people that we work for.

Servant leadership, we touched a little bit about it, but it is incredibly important these days.

It’s not about rolling out your red carpet for your employees and doing whatever that they ask of you.  It’s about making sure that the core of their needs are met.

We spend a third of our lives at work, most of us, and it is a lot to expect someone to work hard for you, if you are not willing to take care of them.  So, take your responsibility seriously.

Chris

I think that’s brilliant.

Now, you’ve already hinted that someone has asked you this question before, and it’s the question I always finish all of my podcasts with.

So, other than talking to everybody, what would be one of the most important lessons or pieces of advice that you’ve been given, or you’ve learned along the way, that you could give to a young leader that’s just starting their leadership journey?

Neil

When your gut and your head are in alignment, move immediately.

Do what you know is best.  Don’t overthink it.

If your gut and your head are out of alignment, spend time, look internally.  But the second that you feel and think that something is the right decision, that is the time to operate.

Even if there are external factors, even if there…emotionally, you are feeling like there is impact…if your gut is telling you something, and your head saying it’s a logical decision, move quickly. Because you can recover from a bad decision, but you can’t recover from not making a decision.

And that has been the biggest challenge in my career is, because of imposter syndrome, that hesitation to make a decision, wherein you’re actually just causing more problems for everyone.

So, you know, I’m not saying move too fast, but as soon as your gut and your brain are in alignment, don’t hesitate.

That would be, I think, the one thing that I would say, aside from talk to everybody and learn from everybody.

Chris

I think that’s really powerful because there are so many times when your reluctance to make a decision is because ‘I just need to know one more thing, I need to be slightly clearer, I need a rational reason to make a decision’.

But I like that you brought in that gut idea, that actually sometimes the “gut instinct” is the right thing to do, and you’re always gonna have a reason that you can explain to someone why you made that…It’s like, ‘I just…it just didn’t feel right’.

Neil

Absolutely.  And I think there’s a need for sort of emotional context for decision making.

But too often, we’re overly analytical, or we hesitate because we’re worried about the outcome.  We’re worried about potential backlash.  What if, what if, what if?  There are 70,000 different outcomes that I’m not thinking of.  Yeah.  That’s life.  Suck it up.  And make the call because you can recover from a bad call 99.9% of the time.

At a leadership meeting recently, I told everybody that I hope that they fail.

Not in general.  But I hope that they make mistakes, because then they will learn from it, they will grow from it, they will be better.  And then I immediately said something that I was not supposed to say, and one of my employees said, ‘thank you for failing’, which is now framed in my office because that is such an important piece.

Don’t let the fear of failure drive you to paralysis by analysis and not making a decision.

Chris

As well as learning from failure and growing from failure, I think sometimes we, as society, need to appreciate that we need to fail, because we need to know what it feels like to fail, so that we can move on.  We can understand that we can actually live after failure.

Neil

Yes.  Absolutely.  I mean, all progress comes with failure.  Right?

I mean, think about, you know, the creation of Microsoft in a garage that went through 30, 50, 70 versions before we have the thing that we have now.  If every entrepreneur, or innovator, or inventor was terrified of failure, they would have given up after the first thing, and we would be living in the stone age.

You have to fail…you have to fail to succeed!

Chris

That is a great message for us to end the podcast on.

So, thank you so much for all of the advice, all of the wisdom, and all of your just brilliant approach to leadership that you have been able to share with us.

Neil

Thank you so much, Chris.  I really appreciate it.  Thanks so much for having me on.

____Closing____

Chris

And until next time, remember, to lead requires us continuously learn.

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