Podcast Episode – Jonathan Palmer

Whether you’re here to revisit your favourite parts of the conversation or to read through the insightful dialogue for the first time, I hope this transcript provides an easy-to-read format of our engaging discussion.

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Key Highlights From This Episode

The insightful lessons and poignant leadership practices Jonathan shares with us are:

• Emphasis on Operational Excellence: Jonathan’s role involves transforming the culture within the operational area by understanding and implementing best practices in leadership, management, and process improvement.

“It’s about…trying to get an understanding of what makes up…operationally excellent departments…within that…is to think about how we lead, how we manage our people, what tools do we need to make decisions that we wanna make.”

This emphasises the importance of equipping employees with the necessary skills and tools to thrive in a rapidly changing environment.

• Evolution of His Leadership Style: Jonathan reflects on his personal journey from a command and control leadership style, to one that prioritises personal connections and the development of his team.

“It took me a while to figure out that if you wanna get the best out of people, you need to connect with them.”

He highlights the importance of connecting with people to get the best out of them, a shift influenced by changing work environments and his personal realisations. That by building a compassionate team culture, this helps in developing strong, supportive relationships among team members, which ultimately leads to personal and professional growth for all.

“One of the things I’ve really worked on with my team is to build that compassionate department…we need to have that compassion in there for each other, and support each other, and build a team that way.”

As part of his role as Director of Operational Excellence, he has developed and lead through on programs to develop a servant leader approach known as a leader-leader model, emphasising the way leaders communicate.

“It was built on David Marquet’s ‘Turn The Ship Around’…the way that we communicate…We’re talking ‘I intend to’, or…‘just thinking out loud’.”

Emphasising a leader-leader model fosters empowerment and trust within the team, encouraging members to take initiative and responsibility.

• Importance of Personal Values and Integrity: Jonathan emphasises the importance of personal values such as integrity and maintaining a work-life balance. He likens his values to a three-legged stool comprising work, family, and health.

“I think for me, you gotta be true to yourself. Yeah. We’ve all got a set of values…for me, it’s having a…I liken it to have a 3-legged stool, and I’ve got my work, I’ve got my family, but then if I drill that down even more, I’ve got my health as well.”

He stresses the need for stability in all three areas to be effective in his role. A large part of leading through integrity, is having authenticity in leadership.

“I think if you’re putting a mask on, you’ll get found out. I think it’s really important to have an element of truth and be yourself as much as possible.”

Authenticity in leadership fosters trust and support within a team, and leaders should strive to be genuine and transparent, leading in a way which they would want to be lead themselves.

“Treat people how you would want to be treated. That for me is key, because that’s the gateway to everything.”

Treating people with respect, humility, and compassion is foundational for effective leadership.

• Adaptability and Flexibility in Leadership: Jonathan discusses the need for structure in leadership while also being adaptable and fluid. He acknowledges the challenge of balancing strict timelines with the empowerment of his team, allowing them to develop through their own experiences and mistakes.

“As a leader, it’s frustrating at times because…you’re sitting there going, ‘oh, I could do it so much quicker myself’…But at the end of the day, if you wanna get the best out of people, that’s how they develop and that’s how they grow.”

Creating a safe space, where team members feel empowered to both speak up, experiment and contribute is a fundamental aspect of effective leadership.

“It’s about letting other people talk and grow…creating that environment. That safe space to speak up is a good starting off point.”

.The importance of coaching and mentoring within leadership training programs, helping to develop future leaders who are well-equipped to create this environment and handle their responsibilities.

“We’re starting to move more into the coaching space, and we’re starting to identify the need for leadership coaching…because it enables us to apply the learning…in the way that we connect, and we think about our teams as well.”

Ultimately effective leadership is about building strong relationships and helping individuals achieve their personal and professional goals, for the benefit of the individuals as well as the organisation as a whole.

“If I’ve helped someone develop and grow, then we’ve got tangible business outcomes. It’s all linked.”

• Reflective Practices and Learning from Feedback: Jonathan emphasises the importance of leaders continuously reflecting on their performance and seeking feedback to improve their abilities. A simple mechanism for doing this is actively seeking feedback from others to ensure they can reflect from a position of greater understanding.

“Just canvas views and opinions of other people…don’t assume…”

In order to truly reflect upon their leadership practice, leaders must possess a high level of emotional intelligence. Not only will this allow them to grow and develop further, but also lead others better, effectively engaging and motivating a diverse, multi-generational workforce.

“…as a leader, you’ve got to have a level of emotional intelligence, so you know who you’re engaging with…I think it’s really important because I think the great leaders have that.”

• The Shift in Employee Expectations and Mental Health Awareness: Jonathan notes the changing expectations of newer generations in the workforce, who seek immediate rewards and fulfilment, as well as the increasing integration of personal and professional lives becoming more important and reflecting the changing nature of work and life balance.

“The bit that’s changed now is that I think there’s this ever-closer blend between home and professional.”

He also highlights the increasing importance of mental health and the need for a supportive work environment that ensures employees’ happiness and well-being.

“Also, I think mental health is such a big thing now…and people realise that they a) want that work-life balance, but also, they want to be happy and fulfilled in their role.”

As a leader this then becomes increasingly important, particularly with hybrid and remote working, that there is a healthy work-life balance for oneself and team members, being crucial for both long-term productivity and job satisfaction.

“I know…when things are really, really busy. And I’m close enough to my team to know when they’re feeling the pressure.”

Being close with your team, having clear lines of communication, and being open and honest allows for you to identify when this work-life balance is being challenged.

“I’ll phone them up every morning and just have a little chat, and check-in, not as a check-up, a check-in. We might not even talk about work, but it’s about connecting with them.”

• Project Management: Jonathan emphasises the need of starting with leading one’s self. This extends to taking a vision for a new project and transforming this into actionable goals. He explains how this requires self-belief before consultation to ensure buy-in, and ultimately understanding the needs of the organisation.

“Canvas views and opinions from other people…but think about who’s on the receiving end of whatever it is that you’re delivering.”

When leading projects and looking at implementing changes or new initiatives, early buy-in is key. One way is to leverage existing relationships as the role of trust is crucial.

“A lot of the people that I…got into the team I’d worked with previously….they’ve worked with me before, so they know me.”

One you have laid the ground work, cast the vision and built the team, it is crucial to set clear goals to bestow trust and empower individuals. Then be sure to maintain accountability, provide ownership and helps with aligning individual contributions to the overall objectives.

“If you get their goals at the beginning…and you spend time on that with people…it almost becomes a bit of a contract at the beginning…between you and them.”

Full Transcript of this Episode

Enjoy the full transcript below!

Chris (Host)

Hello and welcome back to, To Lead is To Learn, the podcast where we explore the dynamic world of leadership together. Whether you’re a returning listener, or joining us for the first time, I’m truly grateful you’ve chosen us as your companion upon your leadership development journey.

Our mission here is simple, to empower you with the knowledge, skills and insights needed to excel in leadership. But before we dive into today’s episode, I want to express my sincere thanks to each one of you. Your trust in us means the world and it’s an honour to be part of your growth.

Now speaking of growth, did you know that To Lead is To Learn is brought to you by Lamda solutions? At Lamda we specialise in leadership development and coaching, and we’re passionate about helping individuals like you become the best leaders you can be. If you’re looking to take your leadership skills to the next level, or if your organisation is seeking guidance to achieve its leadership goals, I invite you to explore what we have to offer. Simply visit our website at www.thelamda.co.uk to discover more about how we can assist you directly.

Thank you for being part of our community, now let’s dive into today’s episode and continue learning and growing together.

In today’s special episode, we will be talking to an experienced leader about their experience of leadership, challenges they have faced, and any thoughts and visions for the future.

____Introduction Clips____

Chris

On today’s episode…

Jonathan

Everything gets so serious…Bringing family into it because that’s why we’re at work…Imagine if our mortgage is dependent on it…That’s not easy….We were managed in a very different way…But then all of a sudden they weren’t so good at being the leader…That is where you have to back yourself…and fair play then move on…You know we have to be like a family…and I think it’s so important that we do more of that…It is a team award, it’s not a me award…You gotta be true to yourself…I suffer with impostor syndrome.

____Main Discussion ____

Chris

Without further ado, here’s Jonathan Palmer.

Chris

What is your current role within Fidelity, and what does that entail?

Jonathan

So, my current role within Fidelity is that I am…well, my official title is director of operational excellence. And my role entails, basically, a number of things, really.

We’re trying to change the culture within our operational area, which is GPIA operations. So, it’s about, you know, trying to get an understanding of what makes up, sort of, operationally excellent departments. So, within that, what I’ve been looking at, or what I’ve been doing is to think about how we lead, how we manage our people, what tools do we need to make decisions that we wanna make, i.e. the types of management information that we need. What type of development do we need to give our people to have, you know, great careers within Fidelity but also equip them with the competencies and behaviours that they need in that ever growing, ever moving environment like we have now, you know, where everything is instantaneous. It’s very different from the types of environments we used to have, where it was very transactional.

Other aspects of what we’re trying to do is give our managers and our leaders the support that they need in order to do their roles effectively, just to help manage some of those, sort of, the softer side of leadership that doesn’t necessarily get covered. We do things like the manager network and those types of activities, and then things like process as well. Process and knowledge, understanding what our processes are. Obviously, we’re in the financial services sector as it were, or asset management, and process is very important both regulatory but also from a business perspective as well. If we understand our process, we can, you know, cut waste out of our process using sort of lean and 6 sigma approaches.

Chris

Every leader has their own story that led them to their current level. What’s your story that led you to where you are now?

Jonathan

A number of different things really. The reason I’m laughing is because when I started out, it was what we would call a very command and control. As a junior person, I was told what to do, and I was led in that way. You know? I’m not saying Fidelity was like this, but I’ve been working since, I don’t know, the mid-nineties. So, the environment was very different. So, it was almost yeah, like I say, it was very command and control.

So obviously, you’re a product of the environment that you operate in, and clearly my style of leadership at certain aspects was very command and control, very direct, ‘just do it’ type of leader, but then that mirrored, as I say, the environment that I was operating in.

Whereas now, you know, it took me a while to figure out that if you wanna get the best out of people, you need to connect with them. And I think things like COVID has actually brought that even more to the fore because, you know, our work life balance, you know, work is also at home for a big part of it, so I think it just adds more credence to the fact that we need to be connecting with our people. And that work life balance is kind of so important. And also, a lot of what we learn in work, it equips you for your home, personal life as well and the attributes that you get out of that.

So, what’s my journey? My journey is one of obviously command and control to now more, you know, I love developing people, I love watching them grow. So, that leader-leader culture, which is something that we really sort of focus on, with our teams now which is to create that ability where we empower people to have the right skills, we give them the level of competency, and we try, and not always, give them that organisational clarity. But that doesn’t always…people struggle with that sometimes because priorities change so much, and things move around and that’s something that we have to really instil in our folks.

So, I think I’d like to say I’m more of a leader where I support my people, but it’s also a personal thing as well. I like to have that personal connection.

Chris

You personally, you said that you were a command and control leader, and now you’re a little bit more of a leader-leader. You’re looking to develop them. Was there a moment where that changed for you? Was it COVID or was there something else?

Jonathan

No. It’s before that, I think…well, it was well before that. It was one of those realisations where, in sort of, I don’t know, 2015/16, I was…if I wanted to get the best out of my people, I needed to have a connection with them. Up until that point, I’d always been a ‘I’m the boss’, you know, type of person.

Whereas it changed, when, I’ve got these amazing people, who are so bright and wanna learn and grow and develop. You get a connection with them and you can build that rapport with them, and then all of a sudden you find out that they’ll go the extra mile for you, you know, that’s really important.

And I think that for me was it, and also, I liked the teams I was building, I loved building teams and that for me was really important. So yeah, if you get that, then you’re yeah, you’re starting off in the right position you know.

Chris

In terms of your leadership approach how would you describe it?
 

Jonathan
My approach? I think, I like structure. There’s certain elements of structure that needs to be there, so I don’t like to be, exposed in that way of not having certain level of structure, so there’s things I do insist on. But, there’s also a fluidity around that where, you know, look, we can we can all write PowerPoints. We can all, you know, deliver a message and, you know, you can do it this way, but there are many ways to skin a cat. As a leader, it’s frustrating at times because you kind of…you’re sitting there going, ‘oh, I could do it so much quicker myself’ you know. But at the end of the day, if you wanna get the best out of people, that’s how they develop and that’s how they grow.

Chris

So, it’s a level of empowerment and giving them the opportunity to make mistakes themselves.

Jonathan

Absolutely. And, you know yeah. Absolutely. It’s so important. It’s so important.

But it’s, also as a leader, it’s really hard, because we’re all human beings as well, not to show your frustration at times. Because sometimes priorities come in, and timelines, and all the other stuff, you know, we’re not talking about a static world, we’re talking about fast paced, got hit delivery, we’ve got to do things. So, there’s an element, there’s a blend in there as well, if that makes sense.

____Break____

Chris

So, what are your personal values that underpin your leadership then? If you were to point them out, maybe 3.

Jonathan

I think for me, you gotta be true to yourself. Yeah. We’ve all got a set of values, you know, outside of the question you’ve just asked and for me, it’s having a…I liken it to have a 3-legged stool, and I’ve got my work, I’ve got my I’ve got my family, but then if I drill that down even more, I’ve got my health as well. And if any one of those 3 is a little bit wobbly, it sets me off a little bit.

But if I bring it back to my work, it’s about having integrity as well with people, and that’s more that integrity where you talk to people and you can connect. So, that’s something for me that’s really important.

Delivering is always really important because I think sometimes, in big organisations, you can ‘we’re a big organisation’, we kind of lose sight of the fact that it’s a business as well.

So, it’s having that commercial sense, and we try and instil that in some of our junior leaders from the early set. If, you know, I always use the analogy ‘if this were your business’. So, it’s having that kind of entrepreneurial tenacity, or whatever you wanna call it, to kind of really take things and own it as if it was yours, yeah your business.

The other line I always say, ‘imagine if your mortgage is dependent on it’, if we want us to be profitable, you know, getting people to think about, would we pay our mortgage that month? You know? So, it’s little terms that I use with my teams just to get them to try and understand that, you know, we might be a big corporation. We might be talking about, you know millions, and billions, and trillions of pounds worth of money, but we’re still a business, you know, and the values that come with that as well.

But also on the flip side, you’ve got to make sure that you make it realistic to them, so I try and bring family in a lot more and I’ve taken a lot of that psychology from sports, I think. You know, if you look at rugby, you know, where they get their families…rugby union particularly, and maybe the same with league…but where they get their families to give out the shirts to the players when they get their 1st caps and things like that. Bringing family into it because that’s why we’re at work, you know, yes we all…unless it’s your own business…that’s why we’re here, isn’t it? And if you can bring that blend together, and I think that’s where COVID is…a positive thing with COVID, that’s come out of this.
 

Chris
Throughout our discussion so far, you’ve talked about changing the way that you’ve led from command and direct to really trying to connect with the individual people in your team. I want you to sort of put your headspace in a follower’s headspace. What would it have been like to have been a member of your team back then compared to now?

Jonathan

Yeah. I think, from their perspective, it’s very direct, I think the mindsets are different now as well because the way that we’ve rewarded people was about ‘do as you’re told’, you know, that would get you a good rating or whatever, and then your bonus or your pay rise will be reflective of that, through your career.

Whereas now, we want people to think for themselves a lot more, and that kind of aligns to this modern age. You know? I think at times, it might have felt a little bit harsh for people as well, you know, in that environment. But then, I like to think, some of the best leaders I’ve worked with at the time were very direct, but if you’ve got a leader that believes in you and sees that potential in you, which, that happened to me in a command and control environment. That’s amazing. You know…and I would go as far as to say I’ve never had that, ever, not even at school, or anywhere, where anyone ever believed in me…and that lights you up, you know, and that’s what you want, you know.

Chris

Do you think that the way that leadership in your experience has changed, from how it used to be command and control to now, has been reflective of the type of people coming into the organisation, as they leave schools, they leave universities, have more of an educational background?

Jonathan

No. I don’t think so. I think people’s…I mean, look, if we talk about the different generations, I think we’ve always had bright individuals coming in that are graduates, you know, and they’ve all been very ambitious. A lot of them have gone on to do amazing things. I think people’s slight approach into expectations is different. So, we think about the generations, they want the money, and they want the promotion or the career development upfront almost, whereas my generation would tend to…we would do the work and then we would get rewarded later. Whereas I think that there’s a slight in that.

Chris

Time between work and the reward is much more compressed.
 

Jonathan
If they don’t think they’re getting progression, then and fair play, they will move on.  They’ll go to other areas, they’ll go to where it is. And I think I admire that, but I’m not used to that.

I’ve been at Fidelity a long time, you know. So, yeah, but I respect that, I respect that. Because, I think previously, if we were being managed by, I don’t know, maybe the baby boomers, we were managed in a very different way, you know.

Chris

I guess, gone has gone the time where people start a job, and they will stay in that until they retire. Now people move all over the place.
 

Jonathan
Yeah. And it’s easy to do that, isn’t it? You can move your pension. You can do all great stuff.

Also, I think mental health is such a big thing now whereas, you know, and rightly so, whereas it wasn’t then. And people realise that they a) want that work-life balance, but also, they want to be happy and fulfilled in their role. And if they’re working for a boss that, you know, doesn’t make them feel empowered, social media tells you that there are bosses out there that do that, and we’ve all probably had that feeling where you get to Sunday evening and you’re dreading going into work, you know?

That’s the worst feeling in the world, you know? So yeah.

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____Conversation____

Chris
In terms of the current climate, what would you say the biggest challenge for leaders is?

Jonathan

Well, the current climate, do you mean in an economic sense or just generally?

Chris

Generally, but we can take economic as well.

Jonathan

Yeah. I mean, there’s a couple of factors.

One is, as a leader, you’ve got to have a level of emotional intelligence, so you know who you’re engaging with. We’ve touched on generations. Well, you potentially got 3 or 4 different generations in the workplace that all operate differently and want to be motivated in slightly different ways, you know, if you think about the ages that are coming through. So, a level of emotional intelligence is, I think it’s really important because I think the great leaders have that.

What else? Challenges?

I think if you’re putting a mask on, you’ll get found out. I think it’s really important to have an element of truth and be yourself as much as possible. I think that’s really important because we all have bad days. As I said, I’ve touched on mental health. I’ve had some times recently, I’ve suffered with mental health. But my team have supported me through that which, wow, you know, I’m blessed. But they’ve done that because clearly they like me, we work well together as a team.

And another thing I always say to my guys and girls, you know, we have to be like a family, we have to be close, we’re not always gonna agree on stuff, we’re not always gonna get things exactly right, but it’s really important that…if we all work hard, I will look after them as much as I can to help them with their careers and their development. To help them realize their goals and ambitions, if that makes sense. Be it professional and personal.

Chris

In the economic sort of situation. I guess, there is that challenge that comes in. There may be some people that are lower down the ladder that’s earning less money that maybe you need to be conscious that actually their finances are getting strained as well.

Jonathan

Yeah. Absolutely. I’ve got people of different stages in their lives. We’ve got people in my teams that, you know, just moved out of their family homes and one of the things I always say is, you know, it’s a contract. If you work hard and want to develop and grow, we’ll do the best we can. But also, this is the first time, I think, in a long time, since 2008, 2009, that we’ve had this level of economic crisis that’s happening. And I think the generations that are going through, from a work perspective, this is the first time.

So, one of the things I’m having to instil at the moment, and it’s hard is, to put that sense of ‘but this is a business and we’re being squeezed, so we’ve got to be showing tangible business benefit’, not just because I rock up to a meeting…oh, you know, my sheer presence should enable me.  But we’ve got to be demonstrating business value, and I think that takes a little bit of time for them to understand, but also when you think about priority bills, you know, there’s only so much money available to people, be it through budgets or whatever else. There’s no more, that’s all we’ve got. We’ve gotta make it last. We’ve gotta make it spread out. There’s nothing more than we can do.

____Break____

Chris

So, you’ve recently been put forward for an award. Is that by your team or is that by the organisation as a whole?

Jonathan

I didn’t know you could have ring that one up.

Yes. I have. So, we’ve introduced a workforce planning tool into the organisation. We’ve partnered with a company called ActiveOps, and it’s been an amazing journey. It’s been stressful at times, not with ActiveOps, but, you know, like anything where you have an idea, you need other people to buy into it. You need to go and get the funding, you need to get all that other stuff, right the way through to…all of a sudden it gets approved and now you’re going into, you know, implementation mode.

And the type of workforce planning tool that we’re rolling out, it also requires cultural change, behavioural change within the teams that are absorbing that change. Well, I mean, if it’s cultural change and change like that, transformational change or change management, whatever you wanna call it, that’s not easy. People want a set way of working.

So, ActiveOps as part of that implementation, one of the things that…and it links to some of the stuff that we’ve discussed with the different style of leadership is, we’ve taken a really different approach with this. Me and another colleague went on a training course, a ProSci change management training course, where we wanted to make sure that we weren’t just putting stats in and we were gonna manage people by numbers, we wanted them to absorb the change, buy into the change, and that’s been a different approach.

Factor that in with my different leadership style, my team submitted a nomination, unbeknown to me, for an award through ActiveOps, and they do a number of categories. One is for operational excellence, one is for team, and then there’s this other award, which is called ‘exec of the year’. The one category that we entered was for ‘team of the year’ because I wanted it to be about the teams that were going through the first cohort, and the first implementation. But unbeknownst to me, my team submitted one for me, and I’ve been shortlisted. It’s a team award. It’s not a me award. It’s a team award.

Chris

Why do you think they submitted for you then? What do you think it is about you that meant that they submitted it?
 

Jonathan
I suppose some of the qualities that we’ve talked around. One of the things I’ve really worked on with my team is to build that compassionate department. I use the word compassionate loads at work now. I’m trying to get it really in there. Sometimes everything gets so serious, and it is serious; it’s work. But we need to have that compassion in there for each other, and support each other, and build a team that way. I’d like to think it’s a big part of that. I spend a lot of time with my people. You know, they’ve all come into new roles. The department that I’m in now didn’t exist, so we’re kind of building it. Maybe it’s…maybe it’s that.

Probably something you should ask them.

____Break____

Chris

In terms of leaders, and future leaders, what do you have at Fidelity that helps future leaders develop?

Jonathan

We’ve got resources available to us. We’ve got our leadership principles. We’ve got some leadership type activities that get rolled out and some training.

My department embarked on some leadership training ourselves, which we partnered with a company called Boringa, and they helped us to build a leadership program. We also targeted our managers.

But we’re starting to move more into the coaching space, and we’re starting to identify the need for leadership coaching. And I think it’s so important that we do more of that because, obviously, what it does is it enables us to apply the learning from that in the way that we connect, and we think about our teams as well.

So, yeah, I think there’s an opportunity there.
 

Chris
So, you mentioned leaders and leadership. You also, in that, mentioned managers. What in your view is the difference between a leader and a manager?

Jonathan

Well, I don’t think there’s anything different. You know, everyone has the opportunity to be a leader.

We have a program that we’ve just rolled out called the ‘empowering colleagues, inspiring leaders’ program.

You have to put a stick in the ground somewhere. So, we’ve sort of said all of our senior managers and above, we’ve put them onto this program, but there are some really good managers that have gone onto it as well. So, they’re covered off by the leaders aspect, but I suppose the empowering colleagues part of that is around, we’re an operational function. So, if you’re an operational manager, be it a leader or not, there’s still some component parts of that, that you need to be able to do and demonstrate, and that’s what I meant by that.

Chris

In terms of a coaching approach, how is that different, and then how is it different to what people are already doing as you’re training that coaching approach?

Jonathan

It’s not pure coaching, as such, it’s not pure coaching, it’s kind of, I would liken it to be more of a bit of a hybrid around coaching and mentoring.

For the leaders, one of the things that you find is that, a technique I’ve found very useful is to get to know them, get them to open up to you, get to spend time with them. Leaders and junior leaders, they’re always supporting either people below them or people above them. And I try and think about what their needs are, and I think once they understand that and they buy into that, that’s when you build that connection and then they start opening up to you even more.

Chris

Do you believe that there are some people that are more inclined to being a leader than others? Do you think they’re born to it? Something’s happened in their life that has led to them…or do you reckon they can develop it now, if they wanted to be a leader?

Jonathan

I think anyone can be a leader if they want to. Absolutely. I think it’s like anything, isn’t it? Some things come more naturally to others because leadership is also about that connection. If I’m the man who’s charging up the hill to take the bunker, and you see me do that, you’ll being inclined to follow me.

You know, in the old days, it’s always been the experts that have got the progression in the organisations, and all of a sudden, they were really good at doing the day job, but then all of a sudden, they weren’t so good at being the leader. You know, it’s swings and roundabouts, I think it’s something you have to develop and learn.

Chris

It’s interesting you said about the running up the hill to take the bunker, and you’re that person in the front and then other people are following. Could you be a leader whilst being in the group as well?

Jonathan

Oh, a 100%. The comment was more around earning respect, and I think that’s really important. That was just an obvious analogy. Being there, someone that’s calm in the background, not being the one that bursts into the room and ‘look at me’ and all that sort of stuff. It’s about sitting back. It’s about letting other people talk and grow. They’re creating that environment. That safe space to speak up is a good starting off point.

Chris

So, facilitating that space can be a very important aspect of a leader.
 

Jonathan
I think, almost, that’s the bit that the leader creates; the environment. That then enables all those amazing little canvases to be built that people could go and paint their masterpieces on almost.

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Chris

This is a tough question. So, as a leader it’s really important to have reflective moments and to reflect on how you’ve done that day, how you’ve done that week. You know, maybe things you’ve done good and things you’ve done bad. What advice would you give to someone to enable themselves to be able to reflect on their abilities better?

Jonathan

I think I’ve found that really easy in a sense…I suffer with imposter syndrome. So, my starting out position has always been one of, ‘oh, oh…well you’re not good enough’. So, when you start out from that position, it’s actually quite easy.

What advice I would give to other people is, just canvas views and opinions of other people, you know. So don’t assume would be 1, I think.

Always be willing to learn and grow and develop. Once again, it touches on that don’t assume, but you don’t know it all, I’ve learned from people every single day. So having that ability to want to learn and continue to learn. I think, yeah, being open minded to being able to learn, and wanna learn and grow and develop.

Chris

In terms of imposter syndrome, it’s interesting you mentioned that. So, you can be very hard on yourself if you have imposter syndrome, and you can feel that you don’t belong somewhere. What have you done personally then, if you said you suffered from this, to reassure yourself that you do belong there?

Jonathan

I still suffer with my imposter syndrome, so I still think that I’m not good enough, or I’m not worthy, or I’m not this and I’m not that.

I’ve had some amazing support through leaders over the last 2 or 3 years that have reassured me…and beyond two and a half years…but have reassured me that I’m doing a great job.

But I think some of my imposter syndrome has been made worse because I alluded to the fact that this current role was not a department when I started. So, it kind of amplified my imposter syndrome because I was building it from nothing. And it’s only in the last 6 month or a year or so that it started to pay off.

You know, the leadership training that I’ve delivered to a couple of cohorts who’ve had some great feedback. Well, they’re not all lying, are they? And I’m not being arrogant when I say it. They’re saying this is amazing, this is really good. So that…I’ve got to listen, my managers and leaders that support me, have been telling me exactly the same.

There’s an element of that, you know, but also keeping grounded is important as well. I’m not trying to be arrogant when I say that.

Chris

You said you built a whole department, you’ve delivered your leadership training. That’s completely come out of nothing. Was that your personal idea or was it someone, and a discussion you guys had and then you said I’ll take a lead on that?

Jonathan

I applied for a role within Fidelity, and it was for operational excellence. That department didn’t exist. The gentleman that I applied for the role with had a vision. But obviously, it’s about taking the vision and turning it into a purpose, to deliver outcomes, to deliver all those different types of things.

Now as anything, I think that was a bit that I struggled with initially, with the role was around the fact that I’m building a business. That’s…once again I come back to that. I’m building a business, so I’ve got to build products and services for people so that they will buy into it and do it. That’s about agile, isn’t it? You go out, you iterate, and you go again.
 

Chris
How did you turn that vision into a purpose then? Because there’s a lot of people that will be listening that maybe they’re starting a business, or maybe they’re within something and then they’ve got a vision, how do I make that real?

Jonathan

That is where you have to back yourself.

That’s where it links to other things that I’ve just said. Canvas views and opinions from other people, not necessarily like-minded people, but think about who’s on the receiving end of whatever it is that you’re delivering.

It was quite straightforward for me because, you know, I’ve worked at Fidelity for 17 years. You know, I know the organisation, I know the culture of folk, so I could understand and relate to the products and services.

But I think there’s an element of ‘back yourself’. That would be the one thing I’d say to myself 3, 4 years ago when I started this role. Just back yourself. You’ve got the common sense. You’ve got the ingredients there. Just stop worrying about stuff that might happen or might not happen.

Chris

When you were building this team, you were getting other people on board, and you obviously had to move them from somewhere where there’s an established role. And you need to move them something and promise them there is something at the end of it. How did you go about those conversations?

Jonathan

A lot of the people that I kind of got into the team I’d worked with previously. As I said, I’ve been there a long time. And they’ve worked with me before, so they know me.

So, yeah, I suppose in a nice way, they buy into me and that comes back to some of your questions earlier. You know, these people are giving up established roles to move to a new department and set up a thing, but they obviously believe enough for me to do that. As a big part of that…and the role, clearly.

So, it wasn’t overly difficult to sell that to them because ultimately, the role I’m in again is about enacting change, not just cultural change, but you know, putting the right tools in place, be it workforce planning, be it competency frameworks, be it management support networks or processes, in place to help grow and support the business.

____Break____

Chris

Conversations we’ve had before have been around servant leadership. You’re quite a big advocate for servant leadership. How have you been able to implement some of that within what you’re doing?

Jonathan

So, the other way I describe that is leader-leader, but, yes, certainly, it is the whole basis of the leadership program that we built or that we’ve been rolling out. It was built on David Marquet’s ‘Turn The Ship Around’. And we instil that in the way that we communicate on a daily basis, you know, even with some of the conversations and comments that we make. We’re talking ‘I intend to’, or the other one that we use, ‘just thinking out loud’, just anything that you can take that reassures people that you’re not trying to dictate to them or whatever.

But then you’ve gotta practice what you preach, and this just comes back to what I’ve said before. It takes longer sometimes, but these people have all the right ingredients. They’re clever. They know the detail a lot more than me. They’ve got the skills. What they might not have, is some of the other attributes that I’ve got, which is the ability to communicate that in a slightly different way, be it to senior leaders or whatever else it is. And that’s where I help them develop, and grow, and reassure them. A lot of what we do as leaders is about reassurance. They know the answers because they do. They’re clever. They’re bright. It’s just helping them to reassure them to go through with that.

Chris

The way that you work now, post COVID, it’s a hybrid model. You have sometimes in the office, sometimes at home. How do you navigate managing and leading your team in that sort of an environment where your hybrid working and their hybrid working, and maybe you don’t coincide with each other? How do you navigate that?

Jonathan

Well, there’s certain things that we do. So, we try to have a day a week where we’re in, I like us all to break bread, have lunch together. It’s really important. It doesn’t always happen, but we try to do that.

As a leader, when I’m at home or in the office, even if they’re not around, I’ll do what I always do. I’ll phone them up every morning and just have a little chat, and check-in, not as a check-up, a check-in. We might not even talk about work, but it’s about connecting with them. Because also, they’re my friends in a lot of ways. That’s really important, I think.

I’m a talker, not a talker. I always say that’s the other thing I say to them. Don’t send me a long email. If you’ve got something you wanna say or do, don’t waste your time. Just ring me up or talk to me, Zoom me, or whatever…come speak to me and let’s work through that. And I think if you create that environment where you’ve got that conversation based…now it needs to be constructive conversation, not just talking for the sake of it. So naturally, we all talk to each other anyway. We don’t have people that tend to isolate themselves off too much.

Chris

In terms of the work that takes place, how do you ensure that there are processes in progress going on without that checking up? Like you said, you said you check-in, but you don’t necessarily check-up. So how do you ensure that the work gets completed?

Jonathan

Well that’s all linked to the empowerment piece. We’ve all got goals. We’ve all got outcomes we’re trying to drive. This all links to the business piece that we talked about earlier on. If we needed to pay our mortgages and all that sort of stuff.

So, if you get their goals at the beginning of the year, right, and you spend time on that with people. And you get them to think about how they’re gonna deliver their goal, it almost becomes a bit of a contract at the beginning of the year between you and them.

When you catch up with them in a formal one-to-one or whatever, it’s around things that are gonna stop them, or any priorities that might have changed that might skew that off. But outside of that, I’m involved because I’m the director of the area, but I’m also someone that’s passionate and wants…I’m a member of the team as well, so we all bounce off each other as well.

Chris

There is a work life balance that has to take place. There are two challenges within that, which is one, the work life balance for yourself, and the other one is how do you ensure that everyone in your team has a work life balance?

Jonathan

I know when…just because I’m close to the work, when things are really, really busy. And I’m close enough to my team to know when they’re feeling the pressure.

So, at times, I will ensure that they are logged off if I’m seeing that. But that’s swings and roundabouts as well because there’s times when I do say, disappear off, you’ve done more than enough. It’s not a, take an extra day’s holiday or anything like that. So, it’s swings and roundabouts.

When you start doing those things as well with them, they know when their deadlines are, so they will go above and beyond to get over the line, because they also know that sometimes I’m rewarding them for that as well, formally or informally.

For me, I always say this is my dream job, genuinely. It’s my dream job. Being director of operational excellence, wow, what a job. You know, I love it. It has been a labour of love, I’m not gonna lie. I love what I do, but I’m at the stage now where I think the balance is good.

Don’t get me wrong. I’ll put the hours in if I need to as well. I’m not saying I don’t put the hours in, but what I mean is; I’m at a different stage. I’ve done a lot of hours…where I was doing sort of, you know, 15, 16, 17 hours a day while building my career and my reputation.

____Break____

Chris

So, from your personal experience, you said when you were younger and working through the lower levels, you were putting the hours in. Would you say people coming in, there is an expectation for new employees to put the hours in to earn that?

Jonathan

No. I think it’s about adding value and delivering. So, I’m not saying it doesn’t, but that always used to equate to long hours.

I’m not saying I don’t now, but what I mean is you still need to deliver the business outcomes that you’ve agreed to do, and you need to deliver. And sometimes that’s the key bit. If you’re delivering on your outcomes, then that’s the most important thing. As long as you’ve got your goals agreed by your boss and those outcomes have been signed up and they’ve been cascaded all the way up or all the way down, then doing what you should be doing.

Chris

What does the future hold for you then? So, what will you be doing, let’s say 5 years, 10 years’ time?

Jonathan

I don’t know. I really, genuinely do not know. All I know is what I’ve learned over the last few years, I’ve gotta be happy in what I do, and you’ve got to enjoy it. And I think, yeah, it goes with anything. If you enjoy what you do, people get the best out of you.

I think I’m adding value every day. I’d like to think in a non-arrogant way.

Yeah. I don’t know.

It’s all linked to the happiness side of things, and being appreciated, everyone wants to feel appreciated for what they do as well.

Chris

So, there will come a time where either you will move upwards, or you will move sideways, or you will retire eventually, and someone will have to step into your seat. Do you have a legacy plan in place?

Jonathan

Not really. Most roles evolve and business activities and functions evolve.

So, are there people that are within the organisation that could do my role? Absolutely. Have I been involved in helping them to develop and grow? Absolutely.

But will there be a need for my role in the future? I don’t know. Probably not, because stuff evolves.

Chris

So, in terms of legacy, there is a legacy that you will leave at your organisation. What is your vision for what you want that to be?
 

Jonathan
The day I sort of hang up my boots as it were, if people just say ‘he did a good job at developing people, to build the foundations to help the next generation of leaders’, or people that work at Fidelity, or wherever it is I am at then, that’s enough.

If you think about what that actually means…is you’ve connected with people in their personal lives, as well as their professional lives, and help them to fulfil their dreams and their aspirations. Wow. That’s, that’s amazing. That’s enough for me.
 

Chris
So, your legacy is more about relationships with people.

Jonathan

Coming back to what I talked about, it’s about delivering outcomes.

So, a workforce planning tool that we’ve implemented will save tangible business benefit to the organisation because we’ll be more effective and more efficient.

Take a step back from that. If I’ve helped someone develop and grow, then we’ve got tangible business outcomes. It’s all linked.

Chris

The final question that I ask anyone that comes on, is what is the most important lesson or piece of advice that you’ve learned that you would give a younger leader starting out on their journey?

Jonathan

Treat people how you would want to be treated.

That for me is key, because that’s the gateway to everything.

Chris

What would that look like to someone?
 

Jonathan
Humility, compassion, you’ve earned their respect, you deliver on your business outcomes and your goals, and also give everyone a chance, there’s amazing people out there. Same as teaching. Leadership’s very similar. That’s what you’re trying to do. You’re trying to motivate and develop people to be the best possible versions of themselves.

The bit that’s changed now is that I think there’s this ever-closer blend between home and professional.

____Closing____

Chris

And until next time, remember, to lead requires us continuously learn.

Transcribed by: https://restream.io/tools/transcribe-podcast