Podcast Episode – Julie Derrick

Whether you’re here to revisit your favourite parts of the conversation or to read through the insightful dialogue for the first time, I hope this transcript provides an easy-to-read format of our engaging discussion.

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Key Highlights From This Episode

The insightful lessons and poignant leadership practices Julie shares with us are:

• Spotting and Nurturing Talent: Julie emphasises the importance of recognising and nurturing talent within her team.

“I like to spot talent, and I like to be able to say to those individuals and to nurture that talent and move that forward, which is what good teachers do.”

This practice highlights the value of mentorship and the positive impact of identifying and fostering potential in others.

• Leading with Integrity and Openness: Julie highlights the core values that guide her leadership style.

“Integrity is absolutely number 1… The other element to it, I think, for me is building relationships and being personable… and an element of pragmatism.”

She underscores the importance of honesty, open communication, and practical decision-making, demonstrating how these values build trust and effective leadership within an organisation.

• Growing Your Own Talent: Julie emphasises the importance of developing internal talent within an organisation.

“The concept of growing your own is absolutely essential… it’s about spotting the talent and then nurturing that, but then making sure that you’re sharing that best practice and then encouraging collaborative work.”

This practice highlights the value of recognising potential within the team and fostering growth through mentorship and collaboration, which is crucial in environments with limited external talent pools.

• Balancing Change and Stability: Julie discusses the challenge of implementing change at the right pace.

“It’s about trying to get the pace of that change right without making people wobble too much… getting the balance between wanting to drive improvement and change forward without doing too much… complacency is where people fail.”

This highlights the importance of thoughtful, measured leadership that drives progress while maintaining stability and support for team members, ensuring sustainable growth and development.

• Continuous Improvement and Innovation: Julie underscores the necessity of perpetual progress and innovation in any role.

“I think it’s important to always have new challenges… I’d hate for us to be doing the same old same all the time, and I just think that that breeds complacency.”

This illustrates the importance of continuously seeking new challenges and opportunities for improvement, which helps prevent stagnation and keeps the work engaging and dynamic.

• Reflective Leadership and Collaboration: Julie emphasises the value of self-reflection and collaborative decision-making.

“I think it’s really, really important for self-reflection, for evaluation in everything that you do, and to be…you’re going back to honesty.”

This highlights the importance of leaders being open to feedback, willing to reflect on their actions, and collaborating with their team to foster an environment of mutual respect and shared growth, which enhances the overall effectiveness and cohesion of the organisation.

• Reflective Leadership and Strategic Decision-Making: Julie emphasises the importance of reflection and strategic thinking in leadership decisions, particularly in response to external challenges.

“I think the trigger for me was COVID… It gave me the time to reflect… I think it was an insight into the huge responsibility of CEO.”

This illustrates how significant events can prompt leaders to reflect on their roles and make necessary changes for the betterment of the organisation. Julie’s decision to step back from Invicta was influenced by the need to address post-COVID challenges more effectively, demonstrating the importance of adapting to changing circumstances with thoughtful and strategic decisions.

• Succession Planning and Sustainable Growth: Julie highlights the importance of succession planning and sustainable growth for organisational stability.

“I believe very strongly that we are not the trust whereby we will have lots of executives who, you know, nip into one school and say, this is wrong or that’s wrong… It’s about quality, not quantity.”

This underscores the need for a well-thought-out succession plan that ensures leadership continuity and the importance of maintaining a manageable size to ensure quality and effective oversight. Julie’s approach to growing leaders from within and keeping the trust at a size that allows for deep understanding and effective management of each school highlights a sustainable and people-focused growth strategy.

Full Transcript of this Episode

Enjoy the full transcript below!

Chris (Host)

This is to lead is to learn. In this very special episode, we will be talking to a real-life leader about their experiences of leadership and any thoughts and visions for the future.

____Introduction Clips____

Chris

On today’s episode…

Chris

Got a good broad discussion there…

Julie

I’m a bit of a workaholic…I really, really struggled…That was probably one of the hardest decisions I have ever ever made…That’s a very difficult question…That that’s the most challenging part of leadership…Bear in mind, we’ve all got lots of other things going on in our lives…I think a leaders always got to be looking at the next step, they’ve got to know the timing of when that next step has should be done…We’ve got a lot of what I hope is my legacy…I’d hate for us to be doing the same-old same all the time…If you don’t love it then you shouldn’t be doing it.

____Main Discussion ____

Chris

Without further ado, here is Julie Derrick, the CEO of Valley Invicta Academies Trust.

Chris

Would you like to introduce yourself?

Julie

I’m Julie Derek, and I’m CEO of Valley Invicta Academies Trust.
 

Chris
The first question that I have is you’ve had a distinguished career within education, and you progressed all the way from the classroom teacher up to CEO of the trust. Can you give a summary of your career path that led you towards that?

Julie

It’s an interesting one on the basis that if you said to me, when I first started my career, I would never have dreamt of being anything other than a classroom teacher. That was my ultimate, what I wanted to do. And I think it’s about probably being in the right place at the right time.

So, I started off as a design technology teacher and really enjoyed what I did. Thoroughly enjoyed the problem-solving element of that and equally loved being with people and line managing people in a very different way. And I was in a school, a local secondary school to here actually, and the head at the time needed somebody to teach business studies. And they had a vacancy because of someone being absent, a normal type of scenario that we get in teaching. And he asked if I would help out.

I had a degree in business and economics, so that obviously made good sense to do it. And I thought, well okay, I’ll give it a go. I wasn’t really wanting to do it unless I had training. So I went back to university and did more training in order to make sure that I was skilled enough to do that.

And eventually, I took on the role as a temporary position, then became lead teacher. And then before I knew it, I was applying for an advanced skills teacher, which was a way of sharing best practice. And I, at the time, in applying to be an advanced skills teacher, really wanted to apply for it because I wanted leadership opportunities, but wanted to stay in the classroom. So, if you look now at what I’m doing, it’s in complete contrast, but it actually put me in a good position and gave me some really wonderful experiences whereby I worked with other colleagues in other schools and really got an insight into what good school leadership was about. Then interestingly, I got to the point whereby my own daughters were looking at their education and the 11-plus, and I visited a couple of grammar schools, one of which was Invicta Grammar School.

I was desperate to work there. I just saw the facilities, saw what the school stood for, and thought I really would like to be part of that school. So as and when that vacancy came out, I applied for that, and here I am now. I was head of business studies, head of business enterprise, and, again, being in the right place at the right time, was asked to do a temporary assistant head post, then on to deputy, and then also head of school. Obviously, going back before then, I did other teaching jobs in other schools.

I did my very first placement, which was up in London at St John Cass academy, east end of London, which was a tough school. Did another one in Catford where I worked in Catford, and then in Wrotham School. So bit by bit, I had sort of gone from London to working in Kent, and I think that insight has given me a really good understanding of both selective and non-selective education, which I absolutely feel has made me understand what good education looks like because I believe you can have both, and I believe it’s important to give children no matter where they are, whether it’s the middle of London, whether it’s in Scotland, or as we are in Kent, the very best education they can. It’s something I hold on to very, very dearly.

I absolutely loved the leadership element of my business and enterprise.  That gave me insight into how you can bring education from the world, outside the world of education, into the classroom. And I think that’s both in my leadership and in my classroom practice. I’ve seen that in my leadership and in my classroom practice, and I think you can do that very easily now with the facilities and resources that most schools provide. So, it’s been an interesting journey, but it’s been one that I think was not necessarily sought by me, but by people seeing where I am and what I can do. And I think I’ve tried to do that in my own practice now as a CEO.

I like to spot talent, and I like to be able to say to those individuals and to nurture that talent and move that forward, which is what good teachers do.

Chris

You said in there interestingly that you were given the opportunity to take on an assistant head role at the time. Who was it who spotted you and potentially pushed you towards that?

Julie

I think it’s a combination, to be honest. I think that you’re given some opportunities in leadership, and it’s about making those links and working with others.  And you’ve always got a mentor, whether that’s the line manager or somebody else, and I can remember it was an assistant head at the time, Mary Chippendale, and she worked really, really hard with me on the basis of just checking in that I was okay with what I was doing, and I had a vision, and I was following through that vision, but most importantly checking in that I had the support that I needed. And I’m, you know, I’m very, you know, eternally grateful to her, for what she did. But there are other people along the way on the basis of heads that I’ve worked for.

When I was working at Elswood Secondary School, I had the most fantastic head teacher who really taught me about the importance of ‘walking a school’, talking to your staff, talking to your students, being there for your parents, and you see that best practice and you think actually that’s the sort of head you want to be. So, there are those sorts of figures, aren’t there, in in anybody’s career that you learn from and you think, well, naturally, yes you know, I want to pick up the best practice that you you’re showing me and modelling on a day to day basis the same way as the teacher does that in the classroom.

Yeah. I also think I had a CEO who equally let me run with a lot of ideas when I became Head of Invicta, and he absolutely understood the need for me to take personal risks in changing the curriculum, changing staffing patterns, and everything that, again, linked to us further improving Invicta. And he gave you that freedom to do that, but he also gave you the reassurance and that ability just to check-in on the basis, ‘oh, have you thought about this?’ or ‘have you thought about that?’ And for that I’m very, very grateful.

Chris

That leads me on to my second main question. You’re a leader, which I personally look up to. What values do you hold personally, which you think those who are around you buy into, and they just kind of resonate with and follow you because of that? So, what values do you put into your leadership?

Julie

I think number 1, and interestingly, it’s one that I had built into the core trust values and that is integrity. I think, you know, we can all make mistakes. If somebody tells me that, you know, something’s gone wrong for whatever reason, we’ll deal with it. And I think that open, honest approach to the way we work is absolutely critical, because then we can support and work together to find a solution. So, integrity is absolutely number 1.

The other element to it, I think, for me is building relationships and being personable and being that person that’s got an open-door policy whereby you’re not leading by fear but you’re leading by rolling your sleeves up and working alongside everybody. And an element of pragmatism because we all want blue sky thinking, we all want to achieve wonderful work things in the world, but I think it’s also really, really important to think what realistically can be achieved in the timescales that you’ve got.

Bear in mind we’ve all got lots of other things going on in our lives, and I hope that’s what people would see me for.

Chris

How would you go about making sure that that’s what you portray to people then, if they’re the 3 key ones that you want to display?

Julie

I think it is about demonstrating that you yourself can make mistakes. And I think, you know, I’ve done that in my career whereby I’ve stood up in staff meetings, I’ve spoken to parents, I’ve spoken to students. ‘No, actually, we’ve got this wrong, we need to change it’, and to be open and honest. Sometimes being honest with them and saying, ‘actually we’re gonna give this a go, I’m not sure it’s gonna work, but we’ll try.’ I think it’s also demonstrating, I hope again, a warmth in your personality that comes across in conversation like we’re having now, 1-to-1, in a group situation, in a large presentation, and that people can see that personality coming across, trying to be the person that you know inside is key for me, not pretending to be somebody else.

Chris

Yeah. So, what kind of leader would you say you are?

Julie

I think, you know, if you’re looking at the real textbook, I’d like to think I’m democratic. But I think there is a need sometimes to have an autocratic approach because we do say, you know, and I’m, you know, I’m sure people would say to me that we are in a position sometimes where we have to make decisions that others don’t like. But it’s one of those places, education, where it’s the world we live in.

Sometimes there are rules and things that just need to be put in place for one reason or another, and I’m not afraid to do that because I think it is important in the same way. And you might be able to. I’m sure you can resonate with this one; there are sometimes some non-negotiables. You know, I’d like to be able to give people freedom, but there will be 2 or 3 non-negotiables because we need a standard there. And I think that that is critical to the way that we continue to improve and reflect on our own practice.

But, you know, there needs to be a certain standard, and obviously for me one of the things that over the years is really focused on that concept of excellence, you know, what do we mean by excellence and make sure our definition of that is set by our non-negotiables.

Chris

It’s interesting. The answer you gave there was democratic on one hand, but autocratic on another. They’re almost bipolar compared to each other. So, if you were a follower underneath you, how would you know which Julie Derrick you’re dealing with?
 

Julie
I think that goes back to the honesty and very much the open-door policy on the basis of, if ever anybody is not sure, being able to question without worry, to have that openness to make sure that there is clarity there. And I’d like to see that that is the case.

Chris

So, have you ever worked with anyone that you thought ‘this person doesn’t resonate with me as a leader’?

Julie

Definitely. Yeah. Without a doubt, I think we would be foolish if we think otherwise in in the workplace, and I think that that’s the most challenging part of leadership.  Identifying, and I hate that phrase, but I will have to use it, people that are ‘on the bus with you’ and people that are not, and being able to, again, have that conversation. ‘Actually, it’s just not working’, and that might be me, it might be them. Sometimes you have to reflect and adapt your practices.

But I think this sign of a good leader is somebody that absolutely recognises you’re not necessarily going to, you know, be best friends with them, but you can work in a professional way because you appreciate that they’ve got a skill set that links to the vision of that organisation and that is a really important feature of what makes a successful organisation.

Chris

So, when it comes to disagreements with your leadership, you welcome it, but there are, I guess, you said about the non-negotiables. They’re where you will not flex, but other areas, you will. And, how do you go about making sure that the people below you are comfortable to come forward to you with ideas that are different to what you have portrayed previously?
 

Julie
I think that’s making sure that you have really good, strong, strategy focus; that everybody understands the vision. And part of that vision is to be able to, I suppose, have a good input into what that vision is going to look like and to be able to welcome that. And I think that it’s also the ability to step aside for those leaders that you’re working with. So, in the school perspective, you know, as a head, you’ll work with deputies and you’ll work with assistant heads. You know, I constantly say to all of my heads, as the CEO, the biggest part of your job is to make sure that you’ve got your deputies that can step into your role at any time.

So, you’ve got to give them freedom to be able to lead and sometimes make mistakes, but very importantly, have more of those successes which, you know, enable others around those individuals to gain confidence in them. So, it is about trying to get the balance between the freedom and the openness to take risks. But, again, just checking in, in the same way as I spoke earlier on about having somebody that used to do that with me, but you’re now doing that in your teams.

____Break____

Chris

In terms of working in a school, I think there’s a…there’s another challenge that comes in.  That, in the sense that the talent pool is very restricted. If you’re in another business sense you might be able to draw from other places in terms of teaching, and then having your leadership team there.  How have you faced that challenge in the sense that you’ve got a very finite talent pool you can draw on to promote up to your team?

Julie

I think the concept of growing your own is absolutely essential. And without that…I know, obviously, I did it in my leadership at Invicta, but we’re now doing that very much through trust. And, again, I think we do that in the classroom.

You spot individuals that have got a talent and then you’ll match them up with the others, won’t you, in your group work. And I think the same follows throughout, whether it’s either in schools or the world of work. It’s about spotting the talent and then nurturing that, but then making sure that you’re sharing that best practice and then encouraging collaborative work, with a view that all that work is developing their leadership skills and then enabling them. So that whole concept of growing your own, really is key.

And, I mean I see it time and time again in the basis of, you know a group of 4 or 5, 5 year olds working together, you spot that little bit of leadership there, a little bit of talent which they can then sprinkle on others, and in the same way in the workplace by paring people up.

And that’s the beauty of my role, which is something I get such a buzz from on the basis of talking to the heads and then talking to them about, you know, the talented staff that they’ve got. Well, actually, you can put that person with that person and, you know, put them together and then suddenly you get great things happen. And we’re seeing that time and time again whether or not its colleagues working within the creative departments, putting administrators together and then them coming up with ideas. But it’s about creating that atmosphere whereby people feel comfortable to do that. And that goes back to that warmth, which I think is an important part of growing your own.
 

Chris
So, in terms of growing, within the time that I’ve known you, I’ve seen the trust grow and alongside that your role and your progression from head teacher all the way up to where you are now CEO. What challenges have you faced within that time of your progression moving over from just a head teacher at Invicta through to CEO of the trust?

Julie

Well, that’s a really difficult question, and I think COVID has been one of the biggest challenges. And I think the speed at which you need to change and continually update. And that’s probably the hardest thing because you know what needs to be done.

Good leaders always want it done yesterday.

But equally, you’re working with individuals that have got more than 1 or 2 things to juggle within their work, let alone their outside lives. And it’s about trying to get the pace of that change right without making people wobble too much. But equally, getting the balance between wanting to drive improvement and change forward without doing too much. But, obviously, the opposite of that is being complacent.

And so, it’s really difficult because complacency is where people fail. But if you look at any business, and it’s where people have done the same old same old thing again. And I think a leader has always got to be looking at the next step, has got to know the timing of when that next step should be done. And that is really difficult because you’ll have some individuals that will run with it and fly and almost do it too quickly, and then you’ll have others that just need to take their time. And it’s, again, about bringing those people together to get it right, and that is a really big challenge.

The other challenge, certainly for me, has been to get the infrastructure correct. So, from a business perspective, which is what, you know, the role of the CEO is, as much as it is about the standards in the schools, it’s about making sure that the HR systems are there. And that is the big undertaking when you’re suddenly coming from, you know, a small, well a school, in which you may well be holding on to everything, and then you’re having to hand over everything and build something there. You certainly can’t do that on your own.

You know, you have to then suddenly think about it from a day-to-day operational point of view as well as a strategic point of view and put it all together within quite tight boundaries because financially, you’re restricted, but you know where it needs to get to, but you can’t get there straight away.

Chris

I mean, you said earlier on that your aspirations originally was just teaching, and then you’ve progressed through. You became head teacher. And then this last transition over to CEO has taken you even further away from the classroom, away from the students.  What sort of challenge has that brought for you personally in terms of what you said about letting go?

Julie

I think…do you know I think it’s made me think about what type of CEO I want to be. And it’s very difficult. You know, you’ve got 9 schools. You’ve got a lot of students. You’ve got a lot of staff. And I want to be a CEO that’s not tucked away. I think it’s important, but by the very nature of what we have all been through with COVID, it’s very hard to be very visual all the time.

So, for example, this morning, I’ve been out to the primary schools, and that’s the best bit. Getting into the schools, seeing musical performances, seeing people come together, having meetings with groups rather than just 1-to-1 every so often, and seeing that spark there. So, I don’t think that I will ever lose the need to make sure that you’re constantly in contact with the practice that’s happening in the classroom, as CEO. I think if you ever forget that, I don’t think that’s right as CEO, because ultimately, you’ve always got to be thinking about what it is like to be a teacher in the classroom, what it’s like to be a head teacher and the challenges they have, what it’s like to be a cleaner or lunchtime supervisor. And as such, I think you need to make sure that you are very, very aware of what is happening operationally day to day to make sure that that influences your strategic approach to everything, and I don’t think a successful leader can be influential in their role unless they’ve really got an understanding that.

And I always liken that to, you know, there are various programs, aren’t there, like The Apprentice, and bringing my business side out here, Richard Branson, who will always at some point go back and spend a few days, whether or not it’s Richard Branson, on the aircraft and talking to, you know, people on there, be it the customers, be it the flight staff, and I think that’s what a good leader will always do. Yeah. I’ve read all of his books, and I’m not afraid to say that I do quote him quite regularly.
 

Chris
I remember when I came to ask to take over as lead teacher of Physics, and I quoted Richard Branson. That was quite a subtle one. I didn’t realise you’re a big fan.

So, in terms of you personally, then, as your career has progressed, how have you found balancing that and all the extra demands that leadership does bring with it with the home life?

Julie

I probably don’t. I’m a bit of a workaholic. I find it very difficult to switch off and even at the weekend, you know, I’m guilty of always looking at my emails and ensuring that I’m on top of things. I think probably, you know, people say VIAT runs through the, you know, the veins of your body, and it does for me. It is something that I hold on to even, you know, so much so that my family will know all about what’s happening in not just one school but all the schools now. They’ll know how excited I get about various things that happen and that’s the way I’d want it to be.

I was exactly the same in about my teaching. You know, you always…that’s the joy of being in education, isn’t it? You’ve always got something to say about what’s happened in your day. It’s just been multiplied by 9 now because we’ve got 9 schools.

Chris

So, your family must be very supportive then to be understanding of the fact that you are always switched on.
 

Julie
I do have a husband that I have to say, 1, is a teacher, which I do think helps, and 2, that is incredibly supportive. Yeah. I’ve got one daughter who says that she’s never going in to teaching for that reason though.

____Break____

Chris

So, in terms of your career then, do you think maybe your interest has been kept in it because of the progression you’ve had? Or do you think if you were still a classroom teacher now, you would still be switched on as much as you are?

Julie

I think it’s important to always have new challenges and I think a good teacher would always have new challenges because they would bring the outside world in, and that’s forever changing with their teaching. They’ve always got new students, and therefore, they’ve got to adapt. I think the most boring teachers are those that think that they’ve done a scheme of work and that they never change it. I used to change my scheme of work weekly, let alone, yearly because you just need to do that. And I think that’s what keeps it fresh, and I think that that’s no different in the way that I work now or indeed how I’ve encouraged others to work, and I think that goes back to the continual improvement drive.

I’d hate for us to be doing the same old same all the time, and I just think that that breeds complacency. And I think that’s as a classroom practitioner, as a CEO, as a deputy head, but I vaguely think that, well…you know, no matter what world of work you’re in, it’d be a boring world, wouldn’t it?

Chris

Would you say that innovation then might be one of your non-negotiables? The need to continuously progress and move is a non-negotiable.

Julie

I think it is, but I think it’s also with the need to reflect, and I think it’s really, really important for self-reflection, for evaluation in everything that you do, and to be…you’re going back to honesty.

Sometimes, you know, in that evaluation, there are things you don’t like. And that’s, you know, the conversations that you have with your team where somebody says, well, actually, now I disagree with you, but you reflect upon it and think, well, okay. Yeah. We’re going to run with your idea rather than, you know, my idea. We’re gonna make it our idea.

And I think that that whole concept of reflection is key, which again, you know, goes back to good classroom practice, isn’t it? A good classroom practitioner will reflect on every single lesson. And in the same way, you know, I work with, a chief operations officer, a chief financial officer, in Richard Hayden, and we constantly, every day, ‘what do you think about that?’ ‘What could we do to be different?’ And I think that’s why there’s a good synergy in the way we work. I worked very well with Van Beales as my head of school in that way, because we were constantly doing that. And I think the more people do that, the easier that open, transparent, “grow your own” that we said just, you know, breeds itself. It just snowballs because you’re working in an atmosphere whereby people feel they can do that.

Chris

I remember when I came to interview at the school and sitting down with you on the other side, and you just had this air about you, this sort of calm but powerful manner. And I think that strong leadership is very important within a head teacher, but also as a CEO. So, you never butted heads with either of them at all, really disagreed, had complete…

Julie

No. We did.  Definitely. And I think that my style is not to have, you know, full blown arguments. It’s to put my points across and to try to do that with conviction. And a level of authority, I think, is important. And sometimes you just have to agree to disagree, and it’s done in that way. But, you know, every day is a new day, and I think that that’s a very positive way of enabling good relationships but enabling people to continually do the work that they’ve got to do.

And ultimately, I’ve always said, who are we here for? We’re here for, number 1, our students and our children in the primaries, and number 2, we’re here for our staff. And it’s very much like a customer service approach, isn’t it, on the basis that you’ve got to aim to please and provide the best service you can and that therefore, as leaders, you’ve got to make compromises and you might not necessarily agree as I didn’t in some of those situations, but we would run with what we felt was best at the time.

Chris

So, in terms of your career and how it’s unfolded, you’re now CEO of the Trust. Are you at a level where you aspire to be, or do you aspire to be any higher or go anywhere else?
 

Julie
I again, this links to the conversation we had earlier on. I don’t have any further ambition, but if something were to be put to me, or suggested to me, I would never say never.  I love what I do, my only wish is that I probably wish that I could have done it maybe 10 years ago, and I just think ‘oh my goodness what could we have achieved’.

I’m very, very lucky I work with a great team of people who are very like-minded and I would love to be able to continue that longer but deeply I know that there are other people than me that have got great ideas and that I need to give them their own space to do that as well.

Chris

Do you reckon that giving more room and space has come with age and wisdom?

Julie

Yeah. I think it has, actually. And I think that that is something that once you’ve worked in that way and you see the benefits, then you see the needs that your experience becomes that you’re more of a facilitator and a guider, coach if that’s what you want to call it, than you are necessarily somebody that actually has all of the ideas, you’re facilitating those ideas because yeah younger people have got the energy and the ideas, you’ve only got to look at what’s happening in, you know, the world of technology. It’s fantastic. And you know, we need to embrace that.

I think that’s really, really important. So yeah, I do think it’s something that strong leadership should enable.

____Break____

Chris

So, I wanna go back briefly to the last few years where you took a step back from Invicta. So that’s quite a tough decision, and a big decision. What was it like making that decision? Was there a trigger that told you that this is the time to make that decision?

Julie

It was probably one of the hardest decisions I’ve ever, ever made. And again, you know, I loved being head of Invicta.

I think the trigger for me was COVID, if I’m going to be completely honest. And I know we could look at lots of people across, education and indeed nationally, world-wide. It gave me the time to reflect. It wasn’t a reflection ‘I don’t want this anymore’. I think it was an insight into the huge responsibility of CEO. But equally, to enable the trust to move in the direction it needed to do post-COVID, there needed to be separation.

And I felt very confident that it was the right time to hand over Invicta into very capable hands, of the team that I had grown. And, you know, I talk about succession planning all the time. And if you were to ask any of my team, I had always wanted to grow them to be in a position whereby they were ready, and it seems the right time to be able to do that. And I think post-COVID, the school needed something else as well. And so therefore, it was right that it had a dedicated head teacher with slightly different ideas, to do something that was going to be slightly different.  To enable the school to deal with the post-COVID challenges, but then equally it freed me up to deal with the post-COVID challenges for the trust. We shouldn’t underestimate that.

Chris

In terms of the stepping back and handing over, was it a Band Aid removing or was it slow and easy?

Julie

I think it felt like it was a band aid. But if I look back, I’d like to think that I was building up to that and those close to me knew that. You know, my 2 head of schools knew that that was the plan. And, you know, my leadership group were aware that changes were awry.

And I therefore hope that it was a measured, I wouldn’t say slow, it was measured. But then we made the announcement in the May for me to step away in August, which was quite quick. But everybody that needed to know had already been well prepared for that.

But it was a big wrench. It still is. There’s not a day that I don’t drive in and think about walking through the corridors and seeing the students. And I absolutely love it. I went into school last week, and students are saying hello to me still, which is lovely. But I know that won’t last much longer, as time’s flying by.

Chris

So, you say you miss it. Do you when you go back, do you feel a sense that things are different, or do you still feel like there’s a continuity there or is it somewhere in between?

Julie

I think it’s a bit of both. I think things are different for the right reasons. I know that there’s been a really big drive on looking at pedagogy and changing that too, for all the right reasons post COVID. I still think that the school has got a lot of what I hope is my legacy in, on the basis of everybody working together, the team spirit, that sense of excellence, the importance of the learning environment, and the general energy for providing opportunities and providing the best, which is really, really important to me.

Chris

So, you’ve stepped away from Invicta. So that was your little baby that you grew all the way up, and you’ve passed it over, and you’ve got a legacy there, and you’ve seen that transition over. You’ve now got all the other schools to worry about. In terms of all of that, what takes most of your time and energy now?

Julie

Most of the time is keeping up to speed with what is happening and almost coaching individuals in their next steps with regards to their responsibilities. And then parallel to that, it’s supporting them with the problem solving that needs to be done because there’s always something that will, hit the member of staff or the leadership teams that they’ve got to deal with.

And as we well know, all schools are on a cycle. They’ll, you know, be doing really, really well, and then something will come out of blue, and it will sort of knock them. And then it’s a matter of, like, ‘okay, how are we gonna solve this problem?’ And then bring it up. And it’s about supporting staff with that.

A big part of our role at this level, be it CEO or, chief operations officer, financial officer is dealing with the finances and managing that with human resources and looking at the infrastructure to support all of the other good things that are happening, and they’re celebrating that success. It’s really important to make sure that people feel valued and that we’re investing in them.

Chris

So, in terms of the long term plan then, for you individually, do you have any plans within the next 5 years within the trust? Have you got a succession plan in place for who will take over from you should you step back?

Julie

Yeah. There is a succession plan. One that I think will work. I believe very strongly that we are not the trust whereby we will have lots of executives who, you know, nip into one school and say, this is wrong or that’s wrong, and then walk away and never, don’t see the school for another 6 weeks.

I believe in an executive structure whereby you’ve got 2 people working very closely together. So, an example will be the executive head to teacher structure, which then pulls the heads of school together, who will then be the future executive heads. And that executive head will hopefully be a future status director, or even future CEO. So that’s the model that we’ve got. In the same way, you know, we’re putting together subject leaders, etcetera, etcetera together, both in primary and secondary.

From a trust perspective, I don’t believe in big trusts. I think it’s really important that a trust is of the size whereby you have a strong understanding of what’s happening in those schools on a day-to-day basis, which goes back to that pragmatic approach. And I don’t think you can do that if you’ve got a large trust. I think it’s very, very difficult. I know some people do it very successfully. It’s not something I want to watch to do.

So, our approach as a trust is to be about quality, not quantity. It’s not to have too many schools. We’ve got 4 secondary schools, so they’re big beasts, with 5 primary. And it’s about making sure that we’ve got that balance. So, the tipping point for me, on the trust is 12 schools.

I’d love to see primary schools, and I would like to see all through education, whereby we take the children from nursery right the way through to their secondary education. But, obviously, the government and Kent need to think about that. But if we could do that. I see the benefits where we take children from Eastborough and they feed into the Science and Technology School and Valley Park. And the knowledge of those students and how that can be shared with the secondary. And indeed, the buy in from the parents and the children themselves, I think, is a really very purposeful successful model of that. And I’d love to be able to see more of that across the board nationally.  But I’m not an influencer in that way.

Chris

So, it’s interesting actually, you’re speaking about a vision that you still want to get to. So, there is almost unfinished business still before you step away, it sounds like. Are there missing pieces then? You talked about nurseries. Are there other missing pieces in your model? Because you said 12. At the moment, you’re on 9, so there’s space for 3.

Julie

Yeah. The missing pieces would be, probably a few more primaries that link to our secondaries and indeed nursery education.  I think and again, COVID’s taught us a lot. You know, those little ones through COVID really, really struggled, and it opened my eyes to the importance as to the importance of, if we could work with parents and the nurseries with phonics and the importance of reading and language development, which really did impact through COVID, then we would have a really strong model.

But likewise, I think it’s really important at the other end of the spectrum, for us to work closely and build strong relationships with college providers, universities, to make sure that we…which is a model that we’ve worked on at Invicta to make sure that a students’ transition is really well supported. And I think that that’s the model.

I’d love us to be able to…not to have our own university as such, that’s really big blue-sky thinking, because that will never happen, but to make sure that we’ve really got those strong links in the same way we have strong links with the nurseries at the other end.

____Break____

Chris

So, if we were to finish then with any advice that you would give to a leader just starting in their journey. What would your pieces of advice be?

Julie

My advice would be number 1, be you. Don’t try to be something that you’re not. Number 2, to make sure that you’re honest with yourself, that you’re equally honest with those that you’re working with. And number 3, never ever count the hours that you work. And I think that that’s a good leader again, because the day you’re clock watching is the day that you shouldn’t be doing that job.  And I think that you’ve got to model that in everything that you do.

Chris

So, you almost have to live as a leader rather than work as a leader?
 

Julie
I think so. And I’m sure a lot of people would criticise you for that. But I think your work is really an important part of your life. You’re at work for many, many hours, and if you don’t love it, then you shouldn’t be doing it. And I think leadership is about that. And, you know, I’ve had so many conversations with people where they’re like, oh, you know, I’ve spent all night on that. Yeah. And hopefully, you’re saying, I’ve spent all night on that, and I’m really proud of what I’ve done. If you’re thinking that it was a lot of hard work, was it worth it, then you’re doing the wrong thing.

____Closing____

Chris

Thank you very much for your time.
 

Julie
You’re more than welcome.

Chris

Until next time. Remember, to lead requires us to continuously learn.

Transcribed and checked using: https://restream.io/tools/transcribe-podcast