Podcast Episode – Pat D’Amico

Whether you’re here to revisit your favourite parts of the conversation or to read through the insightful dialogue for the first time, I hope this transcript provides an easy-to-read format of our engaging discussion.

Don’t forget to subscribe to the To Lead is To Learn Podcast for more in-depth interviews with leading experts in the field of leadership as well as detailed explorations of leadership ideas and approaches.

Key Highlights From This Episode

The insightful lessons and poignant leadership practices Pat shares with us are:

• Seize Early Leadership Opportunities for Development and Confidence Building

Pat underscores the importance of seizing early leadership opportunities as a means of honing one’s skills and building confidence. Drawing from his own experience with Sergeant Major George Didi, Pat emphasises the transformative impact of mentorship and coaching during the formative stages of a leadership journey.

“My first primary instructor was a general by the name of Sergeant Major George Didi. I still consider him one of the greatest coaches and mentors…I had in my entire life.”

He highlights the role of rigorous training and challenging environments in fostering resilience and adaptability, essential qualities for effective leadership. Through early opportunities, individuals can develop a strong foundation of leadership capabilities that serve them well throughout their careers.

“Early on in people’s career, if you’re fortunate enough to get an opportunity to lead, I think it’s the greatest thing in the world because it’s gonna give you skills you never thought you had.”

• Understanding and Supporting Team Members on Personal and Professional Levels

Effective leadership extends beyond professional performance to encompass understanding and supporting team members on personal levels. Pat stresses the importance of genuine care and concern for the well-being of team members, citing it as a fundamental principle for building trust and fostering loyalty.

“If your people truly believe you’re looking out for their best interests, they will perform for you, and you will be successful as a leader.”

By acknowledging the personal challenges faced by individuals and offering support, leaders can cultivate a culture of empathy and inclusivity within their teams. Pat advocates for a balanced approach that respects privacy while demonstrating empathy and providing necessary support, especially during times of crisis.

• Structured Leadership Development and Continuous Learning

Pat advocates for structured leadership development inspired by military training principles. He emphasises the importance of viewing leadership as a continuous journey characterised by lifelong learning and growth.

“Leadership development is a continuous, lifelong journey that cannot be reduced to a simple training program.”

Drawing parallels between military training and civilian leadership development, Pat highlights the value of systematic, progressive training that builds upon foundational skills over time. He stresses the need for leaders to embrace a growth mindset and actively seek opportunities for development, recognizing that effective leadership is a dynamic process that evolves with experience and reflection.

• Transitioning Leadership and Embracing Change

Effective leaders recognise the importance of transitioning leadership roles and embracing change for continued growth and organisational success. Pat emphasises the need for leaders to derive satisfaction from their team’s accomplishments rather than personal accolades.

“The greatest guiding principle that I’ve kept with me as a leader…if your people truly believe you’re looking out for their best interests, they will perform for you, and you will be successful as a leader.”

He underscores the significance of stepping aside to allow for new perspectives and approaches, facilitating innovation and adaptation within the organisation

“…what I found, is that you do reach a point where it’s time for you to move on…step aside once it’s created and have somebody look at it differently, because you become very, very attached to it…”

By embracing change and empowering others to lead, individuals can foster a culture of collaboration and continuous improvement that drives long-term success.

• Tailored Leadership Development Programs

Pat highlights the importance of tailoring leadership development programs to fit the unique needs and constraints of an organisation. He emphasises the necessity of practical and realistic training that aligns with the organisation’s goals and resources. By customising leadership development initiatives to accommodate realistic time commitments and operational demands, organisations can maximise the effectiveness of their programs.

“You need to understand what is the organisation’s realistic appetite… So, you need to adjust that.”

Pat stresses the importance of adaptability and flexibility in leadership development, recognising that one-size-fits-all approaches may not yield optimal results in diverse organisational contexts.

Pat emphasised the necessity of leadership coaching within effective leadership development, highlighting its role in delving into motivations, feelings, and personal growth areas essential for leadership success.

“Effective leadership coaching balances between guiding leaders to find their own solutions and providing direct advice when necessary.”

He emphasised the distinction between coaching and mentoring, underscoring coaching’s focus on personal development and motivation, which aligns with the broader objective of comprehensive leadership training.

• Balancing Leadership and Management

Effective leadership involves striking a balance between providing guidance and autonomy, nurturing both individual growth and organisational effectiveness. Pat emphasises the interconnected yet distinct roles of leadership and management within an organisation.

“Managers manage the day-to-day tasks that are associated with their job. Leaders really inspire and motivate individuals to do what they need to do.”

While leadership focuses on inspiring and empowering others to achieve common goals, management involves planning, organising, and controlling resources to facilitate goal attainment. By integrating leadership and management practices, individuals can effectively navigate complex organisational challenges while fostering a culture of innovation and collaboration.

• Investing in Leadership Development for Organisational Success

Pat underscores the importance of prioritising leadership development as a strategic investment for organisational success. He emphasises the long-term benefits of investing in leadership training and development initiatives, including reduced turnover and enhanced performance.

“…there’s a direct correlation to the lack of leadership development, and the lack of leadership competency in the organisation, to undesirable turnover.”

By prioritising leadership development over job-specific training, organisations can cultivate a pipeline of talented leaders equipped to navigate evolving challenges and opportunities.

“Prioritising leadership development is important… Leaders should actively seek feedback and delegate tasks to focus on broader organisational needs.”

Pat encourages leaders to actively seek feedback, delegate tasks, and foster a culture of continuous learning and improvement to drive sustained success and growth.

• Strategic Time Management

One of the critical insights Pat shares is the strategic allocation of time among team members.

“The data would suggest that a significant amount of time is spent with A-players, and that’s driven by the A-players…But the research also shows that significant amount of time is spent with the C-players.”

Pat advises leaders to focus more on B-players, who have the potential to become A-players. This approach ensures that leaders are not over-investing time in either high-performing or underperforming employees at the expense of those with growth potential.

• Asking For and Using Feedback

Pat highlights the importance of leaders seeking feedback regularly and effectively. He criticises the common practice of asking for feedback during performance reviews.

“You’ve given them no time to prepare…even if they know what they want to say, they don’t know how to put it in a way that they’re comfortable with.”

Instead, Pat recommends giving employees advance notice to think about feedback, ensuring they can provide thoughtful and constructive input. He also emphasises the value of one-on-one interactions over surveys, as they allow for deeper insights and follow-up questions.

“1-on-1 discussions reveal so much more…data is data, but it sends it back to you without context.”

By conducting personal interviews, Pat suggests you can observe non-verbal cues and ask follow-up questions, gaining a deeper understanding of the issues at hand. He finds that this method is far more effective in uncovering the true challenges within an organisation and leading to more tailored solutions.

• Coaching vs Mentoring

Pat emphasises the critical distinction between coaching and mentoring, noting that they are “mutually exclusive.” He believes that clarity in these roles is vital, particularly at the C-suite level, where expectations and needs are high.

Coaching, as Pat explains, is about “delving into what’s motivating you, how are you feeling about this.” It involves helping individuals develop personal and professional skills by focusing on their intrinsic motivations and emotional responses.

In contrast, mentoring is more functionally oriented. Pat describes it as a relationship where the mentor provides guidance based on experience within a specific industry or role.

For instance, a recently promoted Chief Human Resources Officer would benefit from a mentor who has extensive experience in a similar position. “A mentor should not be within your organization,” Pat asserts, because external mentors offer fresh perspectives and diverse approaches based on their experiences in different settings.

Pat argues that internal mentors share the same organisational lens, which can limit their perspective. External mentors, however, provide invaluable insights by drawing on varied experiences from different organisations.

“I want somebody from the outside who’s gonna tell me, ‘Well, that’s interesting that you all do it that way, because I’ve been with these two organizations, and this is the approach that we took.'”

External mentors challenge the status quo and offer alternative strategies that might be more effective. This broadened perspective helps mentees explore new options and potentially adopt better practices.

• The Greatest Advice He’s Ever Received

Pat shares timeless leadership advice he received early in his career, which continues to guide him:

1. Don’t Mess with People’s Pay: Pat stresses the urgency of resolving pay issues immediately, as financial concerns can dominate an employee’s focus and hinder their performance. “Fix it yesterday,” he says, emphasising the need for prompt action.
2. Respect People’s Off Time: Leaders should honor employees’ personal time, allowing them to disconnect and recharge. “Don’t be that person who’s like…’I know you’re going away, but how can I reach you?'” Pat advises.
3. Genuine Care for Employees: The most crucial principle Pat highlights is that employees will go above and beyond if they believe their leader genuinely cares about their well-being. This principle underscores the importance of empathy and genuine concern in effective leadership.

Full Transcript of this Episode

Enjoy the full transcript below!

Chris (Host)

Hello and welcome back to, To Lead is To Learn, the podcast where we explore the dynamic world of leadership together. Whether you’re a returning listener, or joining us for the first time, I’m truly grateful you’ve chosen us as your companion upon your leadership development journey.

Our mission here is simple, to empower you with the knowledge, skills and insights needed to excel in leadership. But before we dive into today’s episode, I want to express my sincere thanks to each one of you. Your trust in us means the world and it’s an honour to be part of your growth.

Now speaking of growth, did you know that To Lead is To Learn is brought to you by Lamda solutions? At Lamda we specialise in leadership development and coaching, and we’re passionate about helping individuals like you become the best leaders you can be. If you’re looking to take your leadership skills to the next level, or if your organisation is seeking guidance to achieve its leadership goals, I invite you to explore what we have to offer. Simply visit our website at www.thelamda.co.uk to discover more about how we can assist you directly.

Thank you for being part of our community, now let’s dive into today’s episode and continue learning and growing together.

In today’s special episode, we will be talking to an experienced leader about their experience of leadership, challenges they have faced, and any thoughts and visions for the future.

____Introduction Clips____

Pat

Oh, that’s a good question, I haven’t really thought about…Also did a short stint at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba…And within moments, there was an explosion…That was really a major turning point in my life…It was a troubling time for me…We take somebody who’s had no leadership experience whatsoever, all of a sudden we put them in charge…Your job is to, in those times, to develop your leadership…And leading can be lonely…And if they’re overburdened with management responsibilities, they’re never gonna find time to lead…You’re immediately going to get backlash from the community…The founder very often needs to sort of step aside…Management doesn’t create success, leading makes folks successful.

____Main Discussion ____

Chris

Without further ado, here’s Pat D’Amico, founder and CEO of About Face Development, executive coach and performance consultant.

Chris

My first question that I do with everyone, which always comes on to my podcast, is that every leader has their own story of how they reach the level they’re currently at. Can you tell us yours?

Pat

Yeah. So, thanks for the question.

My leadership journey really started in high school. I was fortunate to have some teachers and instructors that gave me opportunities to really explore, leadership. Of course, at the time, I thought it was just more being in charge when I was, you know, 14 or 15 years old. And when it was coming time for me to graduate from high school, the reality is, and I always admit this, I had not been an exceptional high school student. So, when my parents said, well, what are you gonna do? I said, well, I’m gonna go to college. And they said, well, that’s interesting because we don’t really have money to send you and your grades aren’t gonna get you a scholarship anywhere.

So, I started exploring different opportunities, and ended up enlisting in the US Army at 17 years old. And, as a result of that, I won a scholarship, or earned a scholarship I should say, to attend, Valley Forge Military Academy, which was located in Pennsylvania. So that was really a major turning point in my life.

Valley Forge offered me opportunities to really excel in the areas of leadership pretty significantly. My sophomore year there was in junior college because I had joined the army, so I was in an accelerated army commissioning program. My sophomore year, I, was a cadet captain and was the commander of the college. So responsible at that point, I think for around 180 cadets and had a full staff. So, it was during my time there that I really, significantly advanced my understanding and my experience of leadership.

From there, I went on…after I completed my degree…I went on active duty with the army for a number of years. And, it was an interesting time. It was the late eighties and early nineties. So, I experienced deployments to Panama immediately after the invasion, US invasion of Panama, and then also served in the Middle East during Operation Desert Storm and then also did a short stint at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. So, it was during really that time that, not only my interest, but I would say my passion in leadership really excelled significantly. And it’s since that time, I really consider myself a student of leadership and leadership development.

So, from there, when I left the military, I went to work for Johnson and Johnson and worked in sales, but pretty quickly, advanced to some other positions and have had a really, you know, pretty robust career. And I’ve had an opportunity to work in a bunch of different functions, but always having responsibility for others and for different sized organisations through my career.

Chris

When doing my research on you, actually, in preparation for this, when I went for your LinkedIn. You start your about you section with a quote. ‘I promise to bring your dad’s husbands and sons back alive’. And you said that that promise that you made at the age of 23, I think you put down, is something that you should never have made. Can you tell me the leadership lessons that you learned from that, because that must be very poignant to be right at the top.

Pat

Yeah. That was an extremely impactful moment for me.

We were getting ready, my unit had already deployed to Panama. We had, you know, been in harm’s way prior to. So, I think I was feeling a false sense of confidence as a leader. I was 23 years old. We, you know, had already deployed. And now we were getting ready to deploy to Saudi Arabia after the invasion of Kuwait. And, I stood in front…it was early in the morning, and I was standing in front of my platoon of 30 soldiers. And behind the platoon were all of their family members.

So, at the time it was an all, you know, an all male unit. And so, their wives, their sons, their daughters, their parents were all standing there. And I walked behind the platoon. It was early in the morning and everybody was, you know, was apprehensive because the unit was getting ready to deploy that morning.

And I walked behind my unit and took an opportunity to address all of these folks. And to be honest, Chris, I can’t tell you what came over me at the moment, other than probably to admit that I was overconfident. And I made a statement to them that I promised to bring all of their fathers and sons home alive.

And, I immediately, in that moment, realised I just made a promise that I had no way to guarantee I could keep. And it was a troubling time for me when we deployed. We were gone for 6 months. And it’s something that I regret, but it’s one of my greatest lessons, which is, you know, don’t ever become overconfident as a leader that you can make guarantees that you can’t keep, certainly, that was a pretty significant one.

And there’s some irony to that because on the day, in fact, at the moment the ceasefire was announced, we had no casualties, no injuries within the unit. And we were sitting in the tent. I was sitting with a couple other officers. We were eating lunch, and the radio was on playing Armed Forces Network, and they made an announcement that a ceasefire had been reached. And in that moment, I thought, ‘oh my gosh, I’ve been able to keep that promise’. And within moments, there was an explosion and the ground shook. And we raced out of the tent and realised that there had been an explosion within our camp. And as we raced to where the explosion was, all I could think of was, ‘oh, my gosh, maybe I’m not going to be able to keep this promise’.

Unfortunately, there were some injuries. None of them were in my particular platoon, but, it was just, you know, when I think back on that moment, it was pretty impactful of, wow. Even at that moment where I thought, I, you know, I regretted that decision, and maybe I had been able…would be able to keep that promise. It was another moment of maybe I’m not going to be able to. So, I’ve always carried that with me.

Chris

During that 6-month period then, when you were out there, did that play on your mind every day then when you woke up each morning or…

Pat

Every single day.

No. It was never forgotten, and I think it probably…at times, hindered my ability to maybe make good decisions because I had made that promise.

So again, it’s something that I’ll never forget.

Not only did I forget it while I was there, I’ve actually never forgotten it since.

____Break____

Chris

So, in terms of the military then, what did you learn when you went to your college, you were commander of college. What did you learn during that time, before you got deployed, which set you up for a career in the military in terms of leadership?

Pat

Well, I think that one of the things that’s interesting, that it’s not thought about, or understood about being a leader in the military. And I started experiencing this when I was at Valley Forge Military Academy, was you’re really not only responsible for the work that you put on folks, you’re really responsible for their whole lives. And as a cadet, I realised that, you know, you’re a captive audience.

I mean, folks are living there, they’re living at the military academy. And so, it’s not only about how are they doing militarily, how are they doing personally, what challenges are they facing. You had to deal with beuhavioral issues and things like that.

When I got into the military, into active duty in the army, it really advanced from the standpoint of, again, you’re responsible during the day for your soldiers, their readiness, their training. But I found myself sitting down to meet with soldiers and their spouses about, you know; they had bounced a check at the grocery store on post, they were having issues with their kids at school. I mean, everything sort of, in the military, goes back to the leader.

So, you know, very different environment I think we’re in today where most things are really kept very secretive and people’s privacy is protected significantly. The reality is that anything that goes wrong in that soldier’s life really becomes your responsibility.

And so, I think it gave me a real insight into motivation that…and as an executive coach, I deal with this a lot and people are surprised…many of the conversations are…very often when I’m having conversations with C-suite executives, 1 on 1, our conversations tail off to, not about the business, but about their personal lives. What’s going on at home that’s impacting their performance? How are they feeling about things in their personal life that may be impact them?

So, it gave me an understanding of, you can’t look at somebody’s performance myopically. I’m a big believer that when somebody’s performance is waning or people are having challenges, it’s not simply to bring…you can’t simply bring them in and say; hey, your performance is down, and I need you to improve it. You have to ask questions about what’s going on with you that’s impacting that. And sometimes it’s work related, but I found over my career that many times it’s not. Many times, it’s something that they’re dealing personally, and they have to grapple with that. And you have to talk about that, in as much as they’re comfortable sharing, that will help you get at what’s really impacting their performance.

Chris

So, do you think that’s something that’s missing in terms of outside of the military, in terms of leadership development? Is that missing there?

Pat

You know, it’s an interesting question.

As I mentioned, I think, with our focus on privacy, which I think is important, I do think that sometimes leaders are significantly more apprehensive. They certainly are more apprehensive today than the 20 or 30 years ago, about asking folks, you know, are there things going on that you wanna talk about?

I think there’s almost an avoidance of that, because they don’t see it as their business. And certainly, it’s only your business if an employee is willing to share it with you. But I do think it’s something that’s lacking, because I think you miss a lot if you’re not asking folks, you know, what’s going on with you that’s impacting this? Is there anything that, you know, you’d like to share? Is there anything you wanna talk about confidentially that, you know, that would help me understand and maybe put me in a better position to assist you in dealing with?

So, I do think it is something that’s lacking, and I think it’s a difficult thing for leaders today because we just live in a different environment.

Chris

Do you think the pandemic, and the knock-on effect from the pandemic, has emphasised that at all, or helped it?

Pat

Oh, that’s a good question I haven’t really thought about.

I think that it’s probably made it a little more apparent, because as you have more folks working from home, I think there, you have greater observation of maybe some of the things that may be impacting that. And I think folks may be more willing to share. ‘Well, I’m dealing with this, and that’s sort of interfering’.

So, when someone is in an office setting and you’re seeing their work and you’re dealing with them 1 on 1, I don’t think that comes up as often.

But I think now that you’re asking, I think with the pandemic, as folks spent more time at home, I think there’s a greater willingness to sort of share the challenges. And I think the pandemic overall, from the standpoint of how it impacted individuals mentally, I think folks became a little bit more willing to sort of share the challenges they were facing, because we faced a lot of challenges during the pandemic that maybe we weren’t used to.

How it was impacting us psychologically, and the stresses that we were feeling, and the pressure…and some of the fears. I think. So, when you when you elevate those fears, I think folks may, at times, be more willing to share.

____Break____

Chris

So, going back to your military…just for one last little bit. Classically, military models have been shown as autocratic, very dictatory, sort of leadership models. Do you think that’s fair? Did you experience that? Or is it completely wrong and mis-portrayed?

Pat

You know, I think that the autocratic nature of the military helps the individuals understand the importance of structure and discipline.

And so younger soldiers will probably speak to that as a negative. But at the same time, I think what you learn over time, as you advance and you become more mature, especially for leaders, you realise and understand setting those standards are really important for good performance.

I do think that, if the thought is that, well, that’s just a downside of the military and it doesn’t really work. I would argue that that’s probably a misperception, because…people, it’s important to understand, I had, and you still have today, you have soldiers that are 19, 20 years old who are leaders.

Right? And they may be leading a team of 3, or they may be 24 and leading a squad of 10. And having those standards of discipline set, really helps that organisation perform. But, I think that, and it’s funny because there was a time period where the US Army went through this, “an army of 1”. Which was really to, sort of promote, each individual needs to be able, and needs to be capable of developing decision making on their own, because you may find yourself, as very often happens, you may find yourself on your own, or with a small team, where you actually have to lead that team. So, I think the autocratic nature, again, establishes standards and establishes discipline, which I think pay dividends back later.

But the structure of the military, in my experience and still today, I would say, you know, it works very well because it helps to develop at the very low-level, leaders that are responsible for a small team first, and then a squad, and then potentially a platoon.

And I think that succession is really important. I think in corporate America, sometimes we miss that. We take somebody who’s had no leadership experience whatsoever. We take folks that have performed well. All of a sudden, we put them in charge. And they wake up one morning, and they may be in charge of 10 people, and they really are unprepared for that.

So, I think the military actually does a better job at doing that, not giving too much responsibility, allowing folks to make mistakes and fail and learn from that, and then ultimately, therefore, as they advance and have greater responsibility, I think they’re better prepared for that, often.

Chris

So, coming out from the military then, you’ve worked in many sectors. You listed a few earlier. So, you’ve got marketing, sales, operations I saw that you’ve worked in as well.

What is it about you in particular, that has allowed you to thrive in so many of these different sectors, after you left the military?

Pat

That’s a big question. I think the first thing that comes to mind is, I’ve had a really interesting career. I’ve had a lot of opportunities to work in different functions.

So, I started in sales, but very early on when I was at Johnson and Johnson, somebody contacted me and said, ‘hey, look, we’re looking at centralised…’ At the time, Johnson and Johnson had centralised recruiting, for the United States, in all functions except for sales. So, somebody reached out to me and said, ‘hey, look, I’m putting this group together. We’ve got a little bit of money, to try this pilot for 6 months of centralising recruiting for Johnson and Johnson’…and in the 3 sectors, there was consumer, pharmaceutical and then medical device….’and we’ve got enough money for 6 months. Let’s give it a shot. Let’s see if it works. And if it works, then it’ll move forward.’

And so, you know, that’s one example of where I had an opportunity to work in a complete new function, really in a completely new department that we built from scratch. I did that. I’ve worked in marketing. I’ve done a lot of sales operations time, and commercial operations time, and a lot of different functions.

I think the benefit that I would speak to, is that I had leaders, one in particular early on in my career, when I took a job as a Director of Sales Operations, came to me and said, ‘look, I need you, you know what your job is, we’ve laid that out, and you understand what your responsibilities are’. But he said to me, ‘anything else you want to be involved in, or get exposure to, let me know. As long as you’re getting your job done, I’m willing to do that’. And I took over-advantage of that. I…there were certain, like, I was not a finance…I had no finance background. So, there were some things I went to and said, ‘look, there’s this finance project going on. I’d love to be part of this. I don’t really understand this. So, I’d like to be part of that’.

And different things in manufacturing and operations. I volunteered for 2 teams while I was at Johnson and Johnson, that were acquisition teams. So, where we bought an external organisation and integrated them. And so, it was my leaders, the leaders that I had and their willingness to allow me to sort of grow and expand, and raise my hand and say, I wanna be involved in this, because I don’t know a lot about it. It’s led to, what I often like to say, I consider myself a master of a few things, but I have experience in most areas.

So, I can generally speak intelligently, in most meetings with executives, about most functions. Because I’ve had at least enough experience to understand the concept and understand what the goals are of those of those different functions. So, I think that’s really been one of the things that has made my career pretty interesting.

There’s not even a clear path. At J and J, when you started sales, typically, they say you have a couple options. You have the strict sales track. You have the back-and-forth sales to marketing track. Or, you can also add in there, some time and training and development. Those were sort of, the way things were done. And I really didn’t view that as a path I wanted to take.

So, I really varied my career. I looked at opportunities that were outside my function, or were an extension of my function, that I could get greater experience in.

Chris

There’s almost being a bit of a maverick in a very structured; ‘this is how you’re supposed to do’. But you were very maverick and going across everywhere.

Pat

Yeah. One of the most interesting things about my career, is I think over half the roles that I’ve had, have been new roles; newly created.

That was another thing I was really interested in, was anytime there was a discussion about, like, ‘we’re looking at creating a department to do this’, I would say, ‘I’m up for that!’

And so, I’ve had a lot of experience, to develop a, sort of, reputation of being able to start a new department, hire everybody that’s there, and then move that forward. And, you know, what I’ve also found about that, when you’re starting a new department, it’s exciting and new. And what I found, is that you do reach a point where it’s time for you to move on. The founder very often needs to, sort of, step aside once it’s created and have somebody look at it differently, because you become very, very attached to it like you would a child. It’s yours.

It’s…you know…in my first couple of departments, it was tough to let go of. Right? I would kind of follow what’s going on there, and ‘I don’t know if that’s right’, and I had to, over time, be able to step back and say, that’s somebody else’s vision, and that vision needed to change. That’s very different when you’re starting something new, but then after it becomes established, you need a new set of eyes to say, ‘okay, here’s the direction it needs to go’.

Chris

That’s interesting. You mentioned time to move on.

Pat

Yeah.

Chris

What would you say are the key, like, indicators that now is the time to move on?

Pat

Anytime, first of all, you find yourself making the comment that ‘this is always the way we’ve done it’. It’s probably time for you to move on. I think that’s a comment we hear too much, and I think needs to not be in our vernacular at all.

But, I think once it’s become successful, I think you really need to stop. And that success has been seen over a year, or 4, 5 or 6 quarters. Probably need to step back and go, ‘okay, is it time for me to move on?’

And it’s interesting because I coach a lot of leaders, and I love when I hear somebody say to me, ‘I just know it’s time for me to move on’.

A friend of mine called me last week, very successful, his organisation actually realigned, and he is out of a role. And it was interesting because the first thing he said…I said, ‘How you doing? How you feeling?’ He said, ‘honestly, it’s really time for me to probably move on. I’m not…you know, I’m disappointed, but it’s really probably time for this to be done differently.’

And that that takes a lot, and that takes a lot of ability to self-reflect, and be willing to put your ego aside and say, ‘hey, look, I’ve done well here. I’ve accomplished what I went out to accomplish, but it’s probably time for somebody new to come in.’

So, I think that’s one of the things that, that is key.

Others might be, when you find your employees are becoming, in your view, stagnant. You’re looking going, ‘these folks aren’t developing at the pace that my previous employees in the group were. Is that because of me? Is it because I am tied to the way things have always been done, and I’m not encouraging folks to really look at things differently.’

I think those are some indicators that that need to be considered.

Chris

I guess, yeah, you mentioned about being attached to your team, being attached to that thing you’ve built. I guess there’s also the other side of things, of the fear of jumping. Where do I then go to next?

Pat

Well, we all fear that. Right?

I mean, the reality is, you know, I hear…we talk so much about change and change management, but at a baseline, people need to understand that as human beings, one of our most basic needs is safety and security. And therefore, change is difficult.

That does not make us lazy, or necessarily resistant to change. It makes us afraid of change.

So, you really need to be able to evaluate, and I think one of the biggest things about being a leader is your ability to really look in the mirror, your ability to look and say, ‘what am I good at? What are my strengths?’ But, also…’what are my areas of development?’

And, I’ve always been one that believes that you need to be willing to take opportunities that are gonna develop those areas, that you are maybe not bad in, but maybe deficient. Right? Because I hear a lot of folks say, and I think it is important, I’m a big believer in strength-finders, and the concept of, you know, play to your strengths. Absolutely! But, to have a long, successful, and satisfying career, I think you also need to be willing to look and say, ‘hey, here’s some things I’m not good at, and I really should look for a role that helps expand this’, and really build your resume. Right?

I mean, as I said, I’ve had a really varied career. I’m very proud of that. It hasn’t been one track. And, so I think that’s really important.

____Advertisement____

Are you ready to supercharge your leadership skills? Get your hands on our free eBook; Mastering Leadership Excellence – A Brief Guide for Modern Leaders. This eBook is your ultimate companion to your leadership journey.

It’s packed with 15 chapters covering common modern leadership challenges. But that’s not all. At Lamda Solutions, we believe in continuous learning, so we’re going the extra mile. After signing up to receive this free eBook, every week for 15 weeks, you’ll receive an additional chapter right in your inbox. That makes a total of 30 chapters, completely free, to support your leadership development and growth.

At Lamda Solutions, it’s our mission to empower leaders like you, your organisations, and your teams. This eBook is just one way that we’re here to support you.

Ready to dive in? Visit our website now at www.thelamda.co.uk to access your free eBook and kick-start your journey to leadership excellence today.

At Lamda Solutions, we’re here to help you lead, learn, and succeed.

____Conversation____

Chris

I mean, you’ve hinted a little bit throughout the discussion, about your passion for developing leaders.

Pat

Yeah.

Chris

From my research, I’ve seen that that’s something you definitely pursue. So, how do you go about this? What’s your approach for developing leaders?

Pat

The first thing I say to any group of potential leaders, that I think is really critical, is they first need to understand, if they get the most satisfaction out of being on stage and being recognised, then being a leader may be challenging for them. Because as a leader, you need to get greater satisfaction out of watching your people succeed. And to be fair, as a leader, your success is fully predicated on the success of your team.

I mean, you know, I have seen a number of poor leaders in my career, who were very self-focused and very egotistical. And that…you can be successful for a while, but in my opinion, not long term. Right? Because at the end of the day, your success is defined, and determined by, are your people successful?

So, that’s the first thing that I look at…is; do these individuals understand that they’re not gonna be the ones getting the accolades now? They have to really be proud of getting accolades for the team. Not that there’s not accolades when you’re a leader, certainly. But that’s, 1st and foremost, the most important thing really to determine.

The other thing in developing leaders is the understanding that, leadership development is a journey, and it should be treated as such, both by individuals and organisations. And it is one of the things that I think is lacking the most in corporate organisations. Is…okay, well, we need leadership development. We know this. So we’re gonna schedule this program. It’s gonna be 2 days. We’ll bring somebody in. They’re gonna do their thing, and we’ve checked the box. And checking the box, I don’t think could be done on most things, but for me, you know, no more so than with leadership. You cannot check a box. It is a lifelong journey.

I still consider myself every day, a student of leadership. You know, my ability to look and see what are the things that I’m not doing well. And sometimes those are things that, they used to work well, and they don’t anymore. So, leadership as a journey…it’s really important.

So, one of the keys to being a good leader, and identifying, you know, prospective leaders is…are they learners? You know, are they somebody who really focuses on learning and development of themselves? Because that’s a requirement if you’re really gonna be successful leader, because that journey, frankly, never ends.

Chris

I love that you said leaders are learners. I mean, that’s my podcast.

Pat

That’s right, it is. Yeah. And I meant to comment on that, but as we started talking…okay. Yeah. I mean, it is so critical.

There’s not a moment that I’m not in the middle of 2 or 3 different books on leadership, or biographies, or things just to, sort of…you know…because storytelling is such an important part of learning. And I think we learn so much from engaging and hearing other stories. So, it’s absolutely critical.

____Break____

Chris

Having a look at your, your business About-Face Development. I saw that it’s focused around providing long-term approaches, as you’ve mentioned. And, you’ve mentioned continuous leadership development as well in there. I loved that description when I found that, because you’ve got the two reasons; one is long-term and then continuous. You hit the nail on the head. You know? So many companies, just 2 days, 3 days, let’s do a week over there…and you’ve just gotta keep going, because the moment you stop, you’re left behind.

Can you explain to me, why it was, that you chose that it’s gonna be long term, it’s gonna be continuous? How did you come up with that?

Pat

Yeah. Actually, that’s a pretty simple question, because what I find with potential clients is, they’re either in one camp or the other.

If somebody reaches out and says, ‘hey, we’re looking to do half a day at our national meeting, and here are the topics we wanna do’. And if I ascertain that that’s all they’re really interested in, as much as I hate saying no to business, I will say no.

You know, we are not an event organisation. We are interested in first understanding what the challenges are, and then building a long-term developmental plan, that ensures that those events don’t just sit as events. Right? What are the things over time that need developed? What is the plan we can put in place? How do we keep folks engaged, and keep them engaged in what is reasonable?

One of the things I’ll mention here that’s pretty interesting is, in the military, in a 20-year career, people don’t really appreciate this, in a 20-year career in the military, as a leader, you will probably spend somewhere between 2 and a half to 3 years of those 20 years solely developing as a leader. And when I say solely, what I mean by that is you will attend programs from 3 months to sometimes as long as 9 or 10 months, without having another job. Your job is to, in those times, to develop your leadership. And so over 20-years, 2 or 2 and a half, to 3 years of that, you’re gonna spend developing your leadership.

When I transitioned to the corporate sector, and the private sector, that was one of the things that I was absolutely blown away by, is that appreciating the fact that when folks are going to development programs, or involved in development programs, they’re doing all that development while they have another job! While they have a full-time job and responsibilities.

And I see it in programs that I run in person. I see it when we’re, you know, when I’m doing remote work. There are things that, you know, they have to deal with. So, it’s really important to understand that, in an organisation, you have to have a continuous development program, but that program has to fit with what is realistic.

So, I think organisations are sometimes surprised.

One of the first questions I ask when I’m being engaged, is…I will say, ‘what’s the realistic amount of time that your leaders can spend developing as a leader during the year?’ And here’s what I find. Very often, the answer I get is something I have to look at them and go, ‘okay, that would be a panacea, and that’s not gonna happen based on my experience, you know, over the last 30 years’. You know, some folks may say, ‘well, we wanna carve out 2 days of every month, for folks to attend a program’. I say, ‘well, that’s aspirational, but that’s probably not realistic’. Right? At least that’s my experience here.

So, we’ll talk about…let’s talk about what is realistic. And, that might be one 2-day program, in person, every quarter. But in between, we’re doing remote development, or we’re doing sessions where they’re sharing with each other, that are much, much shorter.

So, that’s really important to understand, that when you’re talking about a continuous development program, it has to be realistic.

The moment you put something out there that is too much, or is unrealistic, you’re immediately going to get backlash from the community, leadership community, and you’re stopping it before you start.

Chris

Your tagline for About-Face as well, is ‘a change in attitude, behaviour, and direction’. Why did you choose those 3 then?

Pat

Well, I actually chose those 3 because it’s part of the definition of about-face. And the story of my coming to that, the name for the organisation, if you don’t mind my sharing…is fairly interesting

In 1989, I was getting ready to go on active duty, after completing my degree and having been commissioned. And right around that time, there was a book published called About-Face. So, this book About-Face was written by a gentleman by the name of David Hackworth. And at the time, David was considered the most decorated soldier in in the United States. And David had served in Korea. He had served in Vietnam. He’s highly decorated. Wounded a number of times.

And I read the book, and it was incredibly, incredibly impactful from a leadership standpoint. Now some of, some of Hack’s approaches, as he’s known, his last name was Hackworth.

Some of his approaches, you would read today and be like, I’m not sure we could do that today, and I wouldn’t argue that point. But it moved me so much that I actually sent a letter to him, and just to let him know how impacted I was by the book.

And, subsequently, he ended up writing me back, and it began a friendship that he and I had for a number of years until he passed away. And he’s been somewhat of a controversial figure. He was the highest-ranking US army officer that went public about his criticisms about the US approach to the Vietnam War, which you would look at…most would look at today, and say he was completely right!  But at the time, it was very unpopular.

So, when I was looking to name my company…really, in respect to him, that’s where I got that.

So, back to your original question. Those three terms are the definition of about-face. But, you know, to your question about changing attitudes. You know, leadership has so much to do with a mindset. And leading can be lonely. There’s no question about that. And, I think I experienced that in the story we talked about earlier, when I made that promise. I found that, I think making that promise, made me more lonely. I felt it’s so necessary to put on the right face, which a lot of times in those circumstances, especially in the military when you’re in harms-way…you really have to be that rock for your subordinates, and to your organisation. And that can be a lonely place. You know, your peers, which are a small group, and very often you’re separated from them a good portion of the time, really can create some dilemmas for you. So, a lot of it, it’s about attitude and mindset.

Chris

In terms of the direction of behaviour then, that’s just the definition of about-face. Do you have a link to your leadership development in terms of changing behaviour?

Pat

So, changes in behaviour, really is an individual journey. Right?

You need to understand where are folks at in their careers. And since I deal with leaders at all levels, I spend a lot of time, as a facilitator training potential leaders. I spend even more time training current leaders at the first and second line. And then I spend a fair amount of time with senior leaders, who’ve been around a long time. And I think we all develop habits, and folks need to be willing to be introspective and look at, what do they need to change.

Well, the interesting thing is…those are very different roles for me. Right? When I am addressing and training potential leaders, or new leaders, it’s very much about setting a standard, and helping them understand; what are the concepts that are important to understand as a leader? Where are you spending your time? Where should you be spending your time? Those sorts of things.

When I’m dealing with senior leaders, I’m not really driving the conversation. Right? I’m a big believer in, as an executive coach, my goal is to coach. And the definition for me of that is…about what your challenge is. What are your options? What are the options that you’re considering? And then, talk about what are the, you know, pros and the cons of those. Anytime I move out of that role, as a coach, when I’m executive coaching, I tend to ask permission. So, you know,, next to coaching would be advising. And advising is different, in that maybe somebody’s facing a challenge, and I’m asking them, ‘okay, what are your options?’ And I’m hearing the options, and I’m thinking to myself, I’m still looking for the best one or a better one. And I’ll say, you know, ‘do you mind if I, you know, put on my advising hat?’ And once I have permission, I’ll say, you know, have you considered this?

And, I try not to feed too much, because really, when you’re developing as a leader, no matter what level you’re at, you’re really trying to develop that critical thinking. You’re trying to develop that individual’s ability to, sort of, think outside the box. Because we tend to think, okay, ‘well, I’ve done it this way in the past’. Okay. If that’s worked, let’s evaluate, ask yourself, ‘will that work here? What are the factors that are different in the current scenario? And so, therefore, will that solution work here?’

So, I’m very careful about not moving out of being a coach, unless I absolutely have to.

And there are circumstances where I have to go all the way, and be directive, right, which is one of the other roles where I’ll be talking to a leader who maybe, has not had experience in a certain area. And that may be surprising.

I had that situation last year. I was coaching two different people, in the same role, in different organisations. Both of them had the same number of years of experience, and both of them, because of the time of the year it was in, they were both in a certain cycle of business, that they had the same task to accomplish.

So, one of them sort of said, ‘well, you know, I have this, and I’ve done this a number of times before, and here’s what I’m thinking about’. We sort of bounced it around. The other person, during the coaching session, I assumed they…wrongly…I assumed that they had had plenty of experience in this. So, we reached a point where I had to stop, and I said, ‘John, I’m sensing a tremendous amount of apprehension about this task. Can you tell me why that is?’ And they just blurted out, ‘I’ve never done this before!’

And I was floored! I was, like, thinking to myself, ‘you’ve been in…you’ve been in this industry for a long time. You’ve been at a high level. How did you, you know, avoid this?’ And it wasn’t a question of, that the individual avoided it, it just, you know, it was a task that had not been placed in that area, that individual had been in.

So, at that point, it sort of needs some insight to say, ‘okay, here are some options of what I’ve seen done in the past. Here’s some things to think about. Now take that away, evaluate them. Let’s talk, you know, let’s talk in our next discussion about which of those do you think will work.’

But, you know, one of the things with coaching is, you really have to draw it out. It’s, I guess you would say, it’s like therapy. Right? It’s…you’re not there to answer all the questions for them. You’re there to help them find the answer as best they can.

____Break____

Chris

Going back to new leaders then. In terms of new leaders coming in, how would you go about explaining to them the difference between the role of a leader and the role of a manager?

Pat

Oh, I make it very simple.

Managers manage the day-to-day tasks that are associated with their job.

Leaders really inspire and motivate individuals to do what they need to do.

So, managers, I think there’s a bunch of quotes on this. Managers manage things and leaders lead people. However you wanna look at that, I think that’s, you know, that’s pretty clear. Right?

And both are critical. And very often, I use the term manager slash leader, especially when I’m writing. Right? I will say management slash leadership development, because they are 2 distinct things that are inexplicably, you know, tethered to each other.

From a manager standpoint, you absolutely need to understand what are the processes, within your organisation, that you need to deal with and you need to accomplish. That is critical. Those are a lot easier, generally speaking. Right? There’s usually expertise within the organisation that can sit down in a room or 1-on-1, and can train you, or there’s online, and those things can be learned.

Becoming, experienced and developed as a leader, it’s a little more esoteric. It requires a lot more, you know; greater thought, greater introspection, greater evaluation of looking at situations and saying, okay, what is the best way to approach this and how do I really motivate folks to succeed?

So, again, both are critical, but very different.

One of the things that organisations, and I have found this more and more with the advent and advancement of technology without question, which has been funny because, when the advent of technology was supposed to make us all more efficient. And I think what it did was it just made us capable of accomplishing more, in the time frame. But a lot of the challenges that I see in many organisations is, there’s far too much time spending managing and not leaving enough time to lead.

And so very often when I’m doing a diagnostic, which is the way I approach every new client organisation, I perform a diagnostic. And that helps me understand, first and foremost, where are they spending their time? And if they’re overburdened with management responsibilities, they’re never gonna find time to lead, because those management responsibilities are they’re hard and fast. Right? They’re; okay this needs to be done. Here’s the reports that need to be turned in. Here are the responsibilities you have. All these things need to be accomplished.

But very often, what I hear is from the managers themselves is we don’t have time to lead. And a lot of times, that’s absolutely true. And the organisation, you know, my goal is to point out to the organisation; this is why they don’t have time to lead, and we need to have a sincere and honest conversation about removing some of these management responsibilities, so that they actually can lead. Because management doesn’t create success. Leading makes folks successful.

Chris

In terms of organisations then, in terms of their energy, where do you think they put most of their energy in terms of their internal training? Would it be on the managing side of things, or the leadership side of things?

Pat

Well, first off, let’s go before we even get there.

You know, there are organisations that I work with, and then there are organisations that are Fortune 500 or Fortune 100; they do a tremendous job of training folks on the requirements of their job, without question. They make sure folks know how to do their job. Never a challenge there. So too often, that’s where it ends. Right? We don’t have time to…or we don’t have money to invest.

What what’s really interesting, Chris, is there are so many surveys of senior executives that, when they’re asked what needs to happen in your organisation, that leadership training is almost always at the top of the list. But then you ask those same folks, what are you really lacking at? Leadership development’s top of the list. It falls off because people believe you can’t measure it.

And, my first answer to that is, if you are losing, if you are turning over and you are having undesirable loss, you are losing employees that you do not wanna lose, then that is reason enough there to invest in leadership and management. I mean, there are a ton of estimates out there. In the industries that I work in, we estimate the cost of losing an employee, which is also the cost of a bad hire, is probably around a quarter of a million dollars. And that just scratches the surface. Right? There’s the opportunity cost. There’s the retraining cost. There’s all of that. There’s the lost revenue during the transition.

But, when I ask an organisation, one of the first questions I’ll ask is, what does your turnover look like? And what percentage of that is undesirable turnover? How many people are you losing that you wanna keep? And there’s a direct correlation to the lack of leadership development, and the lack of leadership competency in the organisation, to undesirable turnover.

So, once they do that, once you address that, back to your original question, organisations will focus on the management tasks that need to be done. And I, to an extent, I just don’t consider that, personally, leader leadership training. That is not leadership development. That is the individual understanding what’s required in the role, be trained to do that in the role.

And that goes all the way up to the CEO or the president of the organisation or the general manager. Right? You have to know what are the tasks that you have to perform. But when it comes to leadership, strict leadership development, it’s severely lacking and too often falls by the wayside.

Chris

That’s interesting. That resonates massively.

Pat

What’s your experience from your standpoint? What have you observed?

Chris

Yeah. I think it’s exactly the same. When I run my sessions for leadership development, I show a graph. On the x-axis is your time spent in the organisation. On the y-axis is how much, like, your job is what you originally set out to do, coming into the job. And when you come in, it’s a 100%. Yeah. You spend all of your time on that. Then you go through, it’s like, as you get promoted, what you’re good at, you get promoted because you’re good at that. And, it’s like, well, you’re doing less and less of that and more of this bit.

How much time do you get spent, you know, being trained to deal with other people?

And I see it all the way through, in everything that I do. There are so many people in leadership positions who, in that leadership position, they have that anxiety of, like, I don’t wanna let go of this thing that I’m good at. So, therefore, they don’t empower the people below them. And it’s like, well, you’re not helping them out, so they don’t know how to do it.

Pat

That raises an interesting…and I see this sometimes in…when I’m working with organisations at the higher levels. Right? As folks advance, what I encourage them to do is, you know, let go of those things that you’re really good at. Right?

Because number 1, it help will help develop somebody else. You’re already good at it. Focus on those areas, especially when folks move from, let’s say, the VP level to the C-suite level. You see that a lot. Right?

You see folks who have been a head of let’s say, they’re in sales, or they’re in manufacturing. Right? And that’s what they know. And then they move to a C-level position where they have their old function and other functions. And some folks struggle so much to let go of that, and I think folks look at it and say, ‘well, they don’t wanna let go of that control’.

Sometimes that’s it. I think more often, it’s they’re afraid. Right? ‘Well, I know the most about this area, so I’m gonna focus there.’

But then the problem is, those other areas that they’re now leading and they have less experience in, they really are the areas that they really, really need to develop. So, I think that’s really important.

The other thing too that…there was an interview I had watched a month or so ago, where somebody had gathered some data on looking and asking for feedback. And it was interesting because the data showed that the higher an individual goes, in their career, the less they’re asking for feedback.

This is a pet peeve of mine, and I startle some people with some of the approaches that I take to what they need to do to get feedback, how often they should be seeking feedback. Because I think it’s really, really lacking.

Chris

In some respects as well, we tie feedback together with them letting go of things they’re good at. I think, I guess they’re worried about getting the feedback on the stuff they’re not so good at, because they know they’re gonna get feedback and something they’re gonna have to change because of it, and the fear of change.

Pat

Yeah. Yeah, and as leaders, I mean, I, you know, I will always say I know what I do well, and I’m more than happy to share that. But I also am very willing to share what I don’t do well, and make that known, because it’s an area of development.

Something, you know, those are the things that I need to be developing.

____Break____

Chris

So, in terms of leadership development then. We’re going into a business, let’s pretend we’re going into a business, the first thing; you’ve done your diagnostics, you’ve mentioned about the diagnostics.

When you’re then going to put in place some training, are there any key fundamental pillars that will always be incorporated into your training that you provide?

Pat

So, yes.

The first thing is, you know, the diagnostic will reveal to me what the challenges really are. I find that taking a stab at it, I would say 50% of the time, what the organisation thinks are the gaps, are not actually the gaps. That there are others.

And, so I live in a world that I’m fortunate because as a consultant, for whatever reason it is, I was having this conversation with somebody the other day, we were laughing about it, somebody…one of my clients…is that employees are much more willing to share with me as an external consultant. And I think with any consultant, employees are more willing to share what’s really going on, than they will with their leaders. And that is somewhat understandable. Right? I mean, one of the things that’s really important for me as a consultant, is I create an environment where people…there’s a high level of trust and confidentiality.

So, when I’m doing a diagnostic, I may be interviewing 20 people in the organisation 1-on-1, and I let folks know at the beginning of that. I’m not asking anybody to write anything to me. I’m actually taking my own notes. So even the, you know, the way they approach the dialogue would not be able to be, you know, connected back to them. But, I really take it and then and then analyse it and give it back as to collective.

So, once I’ve done that, when you ask about the pillars…I think that the fundamentals are important in anything anyone does. Right? Fundamentals are always important. I train a lot of salespeople, and one of the things that folks will say to me is, well, I think we need an advanced selling program. I’m like, there’s no such thing as advanced selling. There’s an advancement of the basics. There’s getting better at the basics, but you need to really focus on the basics.

So, I actually spent about 6-months, actually more, probably around 9. I spent 9-months when I left industry and went into consulting, because I was on a project, looking at all of the research that was available in on leadership development programs.

It was fascinating Chris, because there’s actually been about 50 years at this point of research on leadership development programs. You have the industry side, all that data. You have the academic side. You have the hybrid of those, where you have organisations that worked with academic institutions. And there’s even a ton of meta-analyses on this data.

So, like, about 8-months on that, what the output of that was, was a list of the 20, based on the research and the data, the 20 most critical leadership and management competencies. And from that list is what we build, really, our initial and even our long-term development…is ensuring that folks have a baseline and understand these are the critical management leadership competencies.

Some of those competencies might surprise folks, and I would say, you know, what we look at is, not all of those require the same amount of time, effort, or focus. In that twenty is meeting management. Now, I would tell you that I would never go into an organisation, to recommend we spend 2 days meeting management. But there are some critical, you know, keys to running a successful meeting as a leader. Therefore, we have some remote or online tools that can provide that to folks, right, because meetings is not something you do every single day, right, when you’re planning a meeting for your team.

So, we provide them resources that they can access when those times come because sometimes there’s gaps in those. Maybe it’s every 3-months, maybe it’s once a year. They can go and they can, you know, they can partake of those micro-learnings and that learning. Whereas other competencies, coaching is one that, you know, I would not revert to online or asynchronous, you know, sort of remote learning. You know, that’s gotta be done more in person, ideally, and then that skill and competency needs to be continuously developed, and there needs to be a continuous process of best practice sharing.

Because one of the other things that I always say to folks as a facilitator, is that my goal…I make that a very clear distinction, I’m a facilitator, I’m not a lecturer, I’m not a teacher, I’m not an instructor, I’m a facilitator…my goal is to bring a group together, discuss concepts with them, and then discuss how do those concepts work ideally within that organisation.

But the other thing is best practice sharing is something that is absolutely critical. I can know a lot about the organisation I’m working with, but I’m never gonna know as much as those individuals in the organisation. So, I always am looking to put in place follow-up reinforcement sessions that involve those individuals sharing what’s working and really even more important, sharing what’s not. Right? We learn more from our failures than our successes. That’s just how human beings are. They’re more impactful.

So, I do have a lot of focus on those reinforcement sessions where individuals get a chance to say, ‘look, we talked about this during the program’…maybe it’s 3 months later, we’re on a Zoom call like this, and somebody says…’hey, I wanna share a story with you, of something that didn’t go so well.’ And I’m always interested first, and I always encourage groups, the first thing we do is let’s share positives with that person. Right? Let’s recognise the good work they did, and that’s then…let’s look for upgrades. What are some things that they could have done differently? Or, I might ask the person who’s telling the story, you know, ‘would you do it differently?’ Like I would as a coach? You know, ‘if you had to go back, if you could go back and do it again, what might you do differently?’ And in that, it gets that person thinking. It also gets the group thinking about…okay, well, maybe this is being missed.

So, I wanna encourage folks to share so that, that development really becomes a community affair.

Chris

In terms of being a facilitator, getting them to reflect. If there was a leader listening to this podcast right now, and you wanted to kind of give them some reflection questions to reflect on their practice. What three questions would you pick right now?

Pat

Oh, that’s a good question.

The first one is…and there’s some context to this…where are you spending your time? And the reason I share that is because, to simplify the process of leading on this question, you know, we tend to put people in in three buckets. Right?

A, B, and C players. A-players are your top performers. B-players are your ones that you know, they’re average performers, but they probably have some potential to do better. And the C-players are the folks that are not really pulling their weight or they’re really challenged. And what’s interesting about the data is, first of all, most leaders will find themselves stratified where maybe 20% are A-players, 60% are B-players, and 20% are C-players.

The data would suggest that a significant amount of time is spent with A-players, and that’s driven by the A-players. Right? It’s not the leader reaching out to them. It’s those folks reaching out either, because they want you to know what they’re doing well, or they’re looking for resources, or they’re looking for support. Right?

Whenever you have a new program available, the A-players are the ones trying to lock it all up. Well, we got 10 opportunities here and you got 1 person on our team. It’s like, well, I need all that. Right? And then they’ll make a good argument. Right? So A-player time comes from the A-players reaching out to you.

But the research also shows that significant amount of time is spent with the C-players, and that that time with the C-players is not driven by the C-players, frankly, they don’t wanna hear from you…that’s driven by the leader. And data would suggest that too much time is being spent with the C-players.

Because at the end of the day, the reality is, where does your time need to be spent? It needs to be spent with your B-players because your B-players have the potential to become an A-player.

So, I would ask people to look at where they’re spending their time…and this is not a difficult exercise, if you just explain that concept to people and ask them; ‘now, think about it and tell me where you think you’re spending…’. They’re gonna say, ‘well, my A’s bug me all the time, and I’m spending time with them. And my C’s, I’m chasing all the time.’

And I’m a big believer in C-players. And when I say a C-player, I don’t mean a new employee who’s just getting up to speed. I mean somebody who’s been fully trained, been around, they’re not performing. I’m a big believer in avoiding firing people. The key is, get somebody to understand and appreciate they’re not at the right place for them today, and how do you help them find a better place for them, whether that’s inside your organisation or outside?

So that’s one question: Where are you spending your time?

Second would be, how much time are you spending coaching your people? Are you observing them and giving them feedback? Not behind a screen. Are you actually spending time with them, understanding what are they doing?

If they’re remote, are you spending adequate time talking about, ‘share with me a story of a challenge you faced last week that, you know, that’s been eating at you. What happened? Tell me about what you did.’ And then coaching them, asking them the question of, okay, if it’s something that’s done and over with, ask them the question of, ‘what would you do differently next time?’ Or if that situation occurred again, ‘what other options which you would you consider?’

So that’d be number two…and the number three one, Chris, would be, are you asking for feedback? And I’m really passionate in this area. And when I speak to groups, I usually give this example.

I’ll ask, ‘when do you typically ask for feedback?’ And 90% of the time, it’s, ‘well, when I’m giving them their performance review, I will then ask them, what can I do differently?’ Now think about that a second. And I say to folks…you’ve given them no time to prepare, saying to them, ‘hey, what can I do better?’

Even if, in that moment, they absolutely know what they wanna say to you. I can almost guarantee you they don’t know how to put it in a way that they’re comfortable with.

So, I always tell folks, and I used and I do this religiously with my own employees. When we are getting ready to have a discussion related to their performance, I will tell them in advance, ‘hey, as part of that discussion, I would like you to come prepared to share with me at least two, ideally three, things that I can do better. I wanna make sure you have some time to think about that.’

And then I will say to the employee, ‘if you don’t come with a list of two or three things, I’m gonna let you know now, we’re gonna sit there and stare at each other until you come up with them. So please don’t put yourself in that situation. But you being able to share what I could do better for you, is just as important.’ So, you need to be doing that on a regular basis.

I think…a lot of leaders, when I say, ‘do you ask people for feedback’, they’re like, ‘oh, absolutely’. But, when I started asking them, ‘tell me the circumstances under which you do it’, I started to discover things that aren’t optimal for them to actually to get feedback that’s gonna help them develop.

Chris

In terms of the feedback side of things, a lot of things have gone online now, gone digitally, and people send out, like, surveys. Like, a leader might send out a survey of…you know, to their employees. Do you think that’s as useful as sitting there, like you said, giving them a week to think about it and then having a discussion?

Pat

Well, you could argue that if they’re doing a survey, they have time. But this goes to a to a greater point.

I talked earlier about the diagnostics we do. Now I give my clients…I do give them two options, but I’m pretty clear about which one I prefer.

So, I’ll say to the organisation, look, we can do this one of two ways. We can send out a survey, which gives us a greater dataset. No question. Right? We can survey a 100 folks in the organisation. Or, 1-on-1 interviews with 20 folks. And I let them know, you know, the pros and cons, but really, I’m trying to push them on one direction.

I firmly believe that 1-on-1 discussions reveal so much more…because; data is data. You know, that sort of survey data, you know, just sends it back to you without context.

If I’m doing a 1-on-1 interview, I can ask follow-up questions if somebody brings something up, and I can also…because it’s very common for me…I’ll conduct 4 or 5 interviews, and I’ll start to hear some themes. I can now dig into those with the remaining folks I’m gonna interview, and you don’t have that ability to do that in a survey because, you know…I’m not a big fan of multilevel surveys. Right? I don’t like, ‘hey, we’re gonna send this out. We’re gonna find out what the what appear to be some of the biggest challenges, and then we’re gonna send out a subsequent, you know, survey that sort of delves into those areas.’

I firmly believe 1-on-1 is far better.

The other thing too is, you know, when you get a survey, let’s be honest, we tend to blow through those things. Right? We probably don’t give it as much thought, but I want that 1-on-1 interaction. I’m really big on that. I wanna…I do them all over Zoom if I can’t do them in person. I wanna actually see them, and see their expressions, see their reactions. Sometimes I’ll ask a question and somebody will cringe, and I’ll be like, ‘okay, I saw your reaction. Let’s talk about why that’s a hot button for you.’ Right?

So, I think that’s…I just think it’s far more valuable.

____Break____

Chris

You’ve talked about coaching, and I firmly believe coaching is definitely something we need to drive forward, and has a bigger impact in leadership than anything else.

In terms of coaching and mentoring, I think there’s a lot of blurry lines where people don’t really know when does it become mentoring and when does it become coaching. For you, what’s the difference?

Pat

They are mutually exclusive. And I let folks know…especially at the C-suite level…I let folks know when with every person I potentially am going to 1-on-1 executive coach. We do our initial call just to make sure we’re both comfortable with each other, that I feel that I actually am in a position to potentially help this person develop, and that they feel comfortable with me.

I let them know during that, that this engagement is about coaching and not mentoring. And I encourage all of my…I encourage everyone, but, you know, I’m just speaking of the executives that I coach…I encourage them to have a mentor. I will share with them: mentor – what you’re looking for is, you’re looking for someone that’s within your industry, or closer to your role, that has the experience, that you go to when, in your function…that maybe, you know, has more experience?

So, for instance, I coach a very recently promoted, Chief Human Resources Officer. Incredibly…she’s incredibly talented, but she’s new to the role. So, when we talk about…when I was talking with her about finding a mentor, what she’s really looking for is a Senior Chief Human Resources Officer, that she can go to for things that I can’t help her with. Right? When she’s going for functional questions, there’s some insight there.

Now the other thing that I think is really important is, and I always tell folks this, a mentor should not be within your organisation. I think that’s absolutely key, because, number 1, you know the same people. And, secondly, that individual is going to look at things too much through the same lens, organisational lens, that you’re looking at it through.

I want somebody from the outside who’s gonna tell me, well, that’s interesting that you all do it that way, because I’ve been with these two organisations, and this is the approach that we took. And, so it gives that individual an opportunity to go and look, and say, okay, maybe those options would be better. Maybe they need to explore those. Maybe challenging to get people to change their attitudes about it.

But mentoring is really more, in my opinion, more of a functional or role specific guide to really bounce things off of, whereas a coach is really gonna delve into what’s motivating you, how are you feeling about this, those sorts of things.

So that’s a great question, and I agree with you 100%. I think too often, those lines are blurred. I make sure that folks don’t…so the two key things for me is; I make sure that folks don’t see me as a mentor…certainly, I mentor folks. Right? That’s a different role…but I make sure people understand I’m their coach. And I also really, really encourage folks to find mentors outside the organisation.

And mentors…finding a mentor can be difficult. So, I, as an executive coach, we’re talking about finding a mentor. We talk about that process. And what’s really critical is, you know, folks that are tremendous mentors are overwhelmed with people asking them.

And I’ll often say to folks, look, you’re gonna have to go to your second-tier list, because while this person would be a tremendous mentor, they don’t really have the time to commit to you. They’re mentoring three or four other folks. And a lot of times, that’s what we deal with. If somebody will come back and say, ‘jeez, we talked about identifying a few, I reached out to this person and they said, you know, they’d love to, but they’re already mentoring two or three people.’ And I said, ‘well, that’s the challenge with really good mentors. It’s folks that are willing to give of themselves like that. They’re in high demand.’ You know? ‘So, you know, keep them on, you know, let them know, “hey, if somebody drops off, I wanna stay in touch”.’

But a lot of times, really good mentors in my experience will tell folks, ‘hey, look, I’d love to do this, but the reality is I don’t have the time to commit for what you’re looking for.’

Chris

There’s been a massive growth in coaching. Lots of people are coming out, executive coaches, you got leadership coaches, you got lots of…I guess the next big boom is gonna be this mentors, people who have, you know, time and, you know, can charge for mentorship as well as, like, coaches do.

Pat

Yeah. I would hate to see that…because I think…and I’m not a big fan of this word, but I’m gonna use it here surprisingly…I think there’s you know, mentorship needs to be a little bit more organic. It needs to be something that the mentor is willing to do, and I think a financial connection to that, I think, unfortunately, would deteriorate, you know, the benefit of it.

You know, the folks out there willing to mentor to give of themselves, I think that’s the most important thing about that mentor. The minute it becomes a financial gain, I think really challenges it.

But, also to your point, mentoring’s become big. I mean, for the first time, at a, you know, at a learning conference probably two years ago, I saw the first sort of application, for mentoring and tracking mentorship, you know, starting to become available.

And so mentoring is really important. And finding mentors is critical, I think, critical to success. And I encourage folks to try to find more than one, because a lot of times, you can’t always reach the primary one that you hope to, but I encourage folks to find more than one.

Chris

I’ve got a final question. My final parting question, which I like to ask a guest is, what are the most important lessons, or a piece of advice maybe, that you’ve learned through your journey so far that you would pass on to a young leader just starting out?

Pat

So, I love this question because there I’ve been counting this for years. When I was 17 years old, and I arrived at Valley Forge Military Academy, my first primary instructor was a general by the name of Sergeant Major George Didi. I still consider him one of the greatest coaches and mentors, one of the greatest mentors specifically, I had in my in my entire life.

And in that first year with him as an instructor, he had been, you know, he was a Vietnam vet of 3 tours. He was he was a tremendous leader of soldiers. And he shared this with me when I was 17. He said, I’ll give you three things to remember, and keep these with you the rest of your career.

And I have. I’ve written an article on this. I mentioned it in many discussions I’ve had. Those three lessons were the following.

The first one was don’t mess with people’s pay. Now, Chris, he didn’t use the word mess, but let’s keep it clean. Right? It was the old army then.

He said don’t mess with people’s pay. If they have a pay problem, fix it yesterday. And I always love repeating that, meaning fix it yesterday, meaning, look, unless you’re working for charity and you are not trying to make money, the reality is people work for compensation. So, if somebody has a pay problem, it will overwhelm them. It’ll be all they think about, so you need to fix it immediately. That was number one.

Number two was don’t mess with people’s off time. Let them be off when they’re on PTO. Let them be off. Don’t be that person who’s like, well, you know, I know you’re going away, but how can I reach you? Right? Let that person have their time off. Everybody needs that. So that was the second thing.

The third one is the greatest guiding principle that I’ve kept with me as a leader ever since he told me that. It was, gosh, it was 35, 36 years ago now. And it was, if your people truly believe you’re looking out for their best interests, they will perform for you, and you will be successful as a leader.

And I’ve carried that with me, and it’s been the yardstick by which I’ve measured all leaders that I observe, either worked for or just observed. Do they genuinely really care about the human beings in their charge, or do they not? And so, I think…and I and I’ve seen it play out for me personally. I’ve asked folks to do some extraordinary things as a leader. And I believe the primary reason, not the only reason, but the primary reason they were willing to do those things, is because they really knew I was…I cared, and I was looking out for their best interest. I think it’s the greatest lesson I’ve ever learned as a leader.

Chris

No. That that’s really powerful.

I love that they build up…build up towards that last one that…that just hits home.

As a sort of sidenote, what’s really interesting is, your About-Face Development business is very close to a business I’m setting up right now. And as you were talking through your process, I went, wow, this is almost, like, exactly what I want to do here.

The idea, like, a one-size-fits-all sort of leadership development package just doesn’t work. It has to be contextual.

Pat

Sometimes, I ask that question I mentioned earlier. You know, let’s talk about what’s the realest amount of time. People are thrown off by that. And even some people in my field are like, never start with…you know…you shouldn’t start with that. It doesn’t matter.

I’m like, no. No, actually, to me, I think it matters more than anything! Because, I’ve seen too many programs fail in my career that, that was…it was an unrealistic expectation on the employees. Right? They’re not gonna commit this kind of time. You know? Sure. It’s great that you think they should, but they’re not going to.

So, you need to understand what is the organisation’s realistic appetite. And sometimes I adjust that. I mean, I will work with organisations when we get a year in, and I’ll go back and go, ‘hey, look. I know this doesn’t seem like we’re asking a lot, but it’s playing out that way. So, we either need to have a conversation about what’s preventing them from participating in this being a focus, or…do we need to ratchet it back? Or, is it a combination of both?’ Right?

Chris

Well, that was a brilliant conversation. I got to about question 8, then we just went off piece, and we just kept on talking. It was great.

Pat

Well, Chris, thank you. First of all, thank you for your consideration, and thank for having me. I really enjoyed it. You do a really nice job of interviewing, and I wanna let you know that.

____Closing____

Chris

And until next time, remember, to lead requires us continuously learn.

Transcribed by: https://restream.io/tools/transcribe-podcast